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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11796 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #660 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:54am freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:44am: I'm more interested in the benevolent authority part. I'm pretty sure he means benevolent dictatorship. Probably, although I'm sure he won't respond.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #661 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:54am

Frank wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 3:13pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:18am:

Frank wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:54am:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1709441638/593#593 date=1710721035]

And I'll bet you are a deluded 'natural individual rights' ideologue, even though the evidence says such "rights" - which are the reason for the endless wars and entrenched poverty ruining our world - don't exist in nature.

Of course they exist in nature, that is why they are called natural rights. Humanity IS part of nature. We are not a supernatural species.

Indeed, humanity IS part of nature's slaughter-house; hence Moses' authorization (which he said came from God) of genocide against the nations who were resisting Jewish conquest of "the Promised Land".

But ideas evolve.... anyone for international law engendering shared prosperity?

Quote:

So rights exist in nature, humanity being part of nature

Wrong. Men's ideas exist in nature - ideas both true and false.

Quote:

But up until your sudden 'indeed humanity is part of nature' just now, you have been parrotting the exact opposite.

No; up until that point I did not have to explain the seeming contradiction (to you) between men being driven by instinct, like animals in nature's slaughter-house, as well as being driven by rationality, endowed by the cortex brain (source of self-awareness, ability to reason, and ability to resist instinctive behaviour).

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This just illustrates the totally shaky and flaky foundations of all your silly parrotting. You are mistaking slogans for solid premises and your manic words associations as reasoning.

Refuted above.

So back to it: the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature, even though men who created the delusion have evolved in, and are part of, nature's slaughterhouse.

Understand now?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #662 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:57am

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:27am:

Quote:

ie, the rational ideology of shared prosperity

Is that the one that the CCP used to starve 50 million people to death by feeding them all equally?

Poor FD , doesn't understand the meaning of shared prosperity.

Low IQ, or ideologically blind?

Quote:

Is there any meat on these ideological bones, or is it just whatever the current CCP policy is?

Shared prosperity, in the age of AI and IT?

Study MMT.

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« Last Edit: Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:16am by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11796 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #663 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am Quote: the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature Does freedom exist in nature? Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #664 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:07am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:34am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 3:49pm:

[quote]When democracy is killed off, ....

and replaced with benevolent authority in a consensus meritocracy, dedicated to shared prosperity and a modernized UNUDHR (which supercedes all -isms and 'sovereignty' bs), it will be a blessing, because "democracy is the worst form of governement...."

Define a consensus meritocracy.

Government officials chosen by consensus based on abilities of individuals.

Just like political parties in Oz choose the candidates they want, to face the electorate.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #665 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:09am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:07am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:34am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 3:49pm:

[quote]When democracy is killed off, ....

and replaced with benevolent authority in a consensus meritocracy, dedicated to shared prosperity and a modernized UNUDHR (which supercedes all -isms and 'sovereignty' bs), it will be a blessing, because "democracy is the worst form of governement...."

Define a consensus meritocracy.

Government officials chosen by consensus based on abilities of individuals.

Just like political parties in Oz choose the candidates they want, to face the electorate.

Who are the persons that form a consensus?

How do those people become electors?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #666 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:13am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:54am:

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:44am:

I'm more interested in the benevolent authority part. I'm pretty sure he means benevolent dictatorship.

Probably, although I'm sure he won't respond.

Wrong again.

Meanwhile poor FD can't see colour, only black and white: "authority" means "dictatorship".

Ideologically crippled-brain stuff.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #667 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

Already fully addressed.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #668 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:22am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

Already fully addressed.

Define freedom such that it exists in nature.

Define consensus meritocracy' such that it exists in nature.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #669 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:30am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

Frank wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 3:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 2:01pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 1:41pm:

Back when the CCP was busy starving 50 million of it's citizens to death by trying to feed them all equally, they actually had them convinced that they were wealthier than the Americans. They are still trying to same trick today.

Your ideologically crippled brain can't address the issue, ie how to achieve shared prosperity.

Xi is working hard to achieve it in China, but Western- trained PBofC economists are making it difficult.

isn't your idea ideologucal?

Well...yes.

ei, the rational ideology of shared prosperity

cf with the irrational ideology of winner takes all, based on the delusional "natural individual rights" ideology of Western Classicism.

How do you decide between ideologies that value things differently? What is the value-neutral position from which you can judge ideologies?

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #670 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:34am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:07am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:34am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 3:49pm:

[quote]When democracy is killed off, ....

and replaced with benevolent authority in a consensus meritocracy, dedicated to shared prosperity and a modernized UNUDHR (which supercedes all -isms and 'sovereignty' bs), it will be a blessing, because "democracy is the worst form of governement...."

Define a consensus meritocracy.

Government officials chosen by consensus based on abilities of individuals.

Just like political parties in Oz choose the candidates they want, to face the electorate.

Chosen by consensus: by the vote of the unelected, and never facing the electorate.

So a limited elite (communist party) decides what is best for everyone. Haven't we seen this model fail spectacularly everywhere?

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #671 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:35am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

Already fully addressed.

So inequality is natural.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #672 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:38am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:22am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

Already fully addressed.

Define freedom such that it exists in nature.

Define consensus meritocracy' such that it exists in nature.

'In as much', eh!

How much is 'in as much'?

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #673 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:54am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

And so rights are natural.
Natural rights.

Ta.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #674 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:56am

Frank wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:30am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

Frank wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 3:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 2:01pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 1:41pm:

Back when the CCP was busy starving 50 million of it's citizens to death by trying to feed them all equally, they actually had them convinced that they were wealthier than the Americans. They are still trying to same trick today.

Your ideologically crippled brain can't address the issue, ie how to achieve shared prosperity.

Xi is working hard to achieve it in China, but Western- trained PBofC economists are making it difficult.

isn't your idea ideologucal?

Well...yes.

ei, the rational ideology of shared prosperity

cf with the irrational ideology of winner takes all, based on the delusional "natural individual rights" ideology of Western Classicism.

How do you decide between ideologies that value things differently? What is the value-neutral position from which you can judge ideologies?

By applying the standards of morality, justice and fairness, introduced into nature's slaughter-house as a result of the evolved human cortex brain.

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