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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11227 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #675 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:00am thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:56am: By applying the standards of morality, justice and fairness, introduced into nature's slaughter-house as a result of the evolved human cortex brain. Are you going to risk claiming that morality, Justice and fairness also exist in nature?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #676 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:10am

Frank wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:35am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

Already fully addressed.

So inequality is natural.

Already fully addressed in #661, to which you didn't reply because you are unable to reply...

Of course "inequality" (eg measured by differences in predators' abilities) exists - and existed in nature, before men were even able to comment on "inequlality".

But now men are endowed (via the cortex brain) with the ability to comment on nature's inequality (in nature's tooth and claw slaughter-house), and indeed to consider how to evercome the egregious aspects of inequality in human society.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #677 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:20am

Frank wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:54am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

And so rights are natural.
Natural rights.

Ta.

(Sigh) Low IQ?

Ideas exist among men, (hence are "natural", according to you), but classical individual rights are delusional ideas of men because such rights don't exist in nature's slaughter-house.

Ideas can be true or false.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #678 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:21am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:56am:

By applying the standards of morality, justice and fairness, introduced into nature's slaughter-house as a result of the evolved human cortex brain.

The 'human cortex brain', eh!

Adding to the mumbo jumbo, eh!

All these concepts that exist in nature - and you can't define one of them!

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11227 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #679 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:23am thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:20am: classical individual rights are delusional ideas of men because such rights don't exist in nature's slaughter-house. Ideas can be true or false. Does morality, justice and fairness exist in nature?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #680 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:25am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:38am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:22am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

Already fully addressed.

Define freedom such that it exists in nature.

Define consensus meritocracy' such that it exists in nature.

'In as much', eh!

How much is 'in as much'?

"In as much" = "that is" ...

Too desperate defending your delusions, to see it?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #681 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:28am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:25am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:38am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:22am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

Quote:

the Classical Western ideology of 'natural individual rights' is delusional, because such rights don't exist in nature

Does freedom exist in nature?

yes

Quote:

Does 'consensus meritocracy' exist in nature?

Yes - in as much as the ideas of men exist in nature.

Already fully addressed.

Define freedom such that it exists in nature.

Define consensus meritocracy' such that it exists in nature.

'In as much', eh!

How much is 'in as much'?

"In as much" = "that is" ...

Too desperate defending your delusions, to see it?

No, in the context you're using it, it means: to the extent or degree that; in so far as.

You are using it to deflect from defining 'consensus meritocracy' .

Is English not your first language?

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #682 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:50am

She cannot define any of the words and phrases she uses, because it is all just propaganda from the Chinese Communist Party. There is nothing behind it. It's a hodge-podge of CCP policies and thought bubbles wrapped in western-sounding catch phrases. But she also cannot admit it comes from the CCP, or appeal to a sense of Chinese racism or Chinese superiority like the CCP does at home. So instead it has the appearance of coming from no-where and having no basis in rational thought or ideology. The Communist party long ago abandoned the ideology of communism, so there is not even that.

It's like the Labor party invented it's own branch of economics, philosophy, etc, that just happened to match every aspect of ALP policy, then got its supporters to start promoting it while pretending is is something entirely new or something accepted by academia as a full and coherent philosophy.

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« Last Edit: Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:56am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #683 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:56am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:56am:

Frank wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:30am:

How do you decide between ideologies that value things differently? What is the value-neutral position from which you can judge ideologies?

By applying the standards of morality, justice and fairness, introduced into nature's slaughter-house as a result of the evolved human cortex brain.

Which standards are those? The CCP's standards? Islam's standards? Christian standards (which ones)? Western liberal democratic standards?

You don't understand the questions put to you - nor the answers you give.

How do you decide between ideologies that value things differently? What is the value-neutral position from which you can judge ideologies?

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #684 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 1:21pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:50am:

She cannot define any of the words and phrases she uses, because it is all just propaganda from the Chinese Communist Party. There is nothing behind it. It's a hodge-podge of CCP policies and thought bubbles wrapped in western-sounding catch phrases. But she also cannot admit it comes from the CCP, or appeal to a sense of Chinese racism or Chinese superiority like the CCP does at home. So instead it has the appearance of coming from no-where and having no basis in rational thought or ideology. The Communist party long ago abandoned the ideology of communism, so there is not even that.

Yes, it arises within mainland Chinese people in that they are not taught critical thinking, or learn very quickly that to appy it can be dangerous, even fatal. Were it not for the Taiwanese and Singaporeans, we all might be tempted to believe that it's genetic.

The other cultural issue that reinforces the taboo on critical thinking within Chinese culture is the fear of losing face, or the fear that as a subordinate you will cause a senior or someone in power to lose face - i.e. never contradict, question or challenge statements made by a senior.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #685 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 4:13pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:00am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:56am:

By applying the standards of morality, justice and fairness, introduced into nature's slaughter-house as a result of the evolved human cortex brain.

Are you going to risk claiming that morality, Justice and fairness also exist in nature?

Endless questions, already answered.

Still... my burden, to relieve the deluded of their delusional ideation....

I don't risk failure when it comes to examining reality.

Morality, Justice, and Fairness are ideas created in the human cortex brain, and therefore exist in nature's slaughter-house, ie, since the appearance of homo sapiens c. 300K years ago, and developed over that time.

They are concepts which are universally attractive to humans, at the abstract level.

You can try arguing those three things are not universally attractive.....

In contrast to the delusional idea of 'natural individual rights' which didn't "exist in nature" for most of that 300K years - when humans were NOT at the top of the food chain in nature's slaughter-house.... a false concept which significantly came into being during the enlightenment, as a result of men trying to find a basis for rule of law after the collapse of the 'Divine Right of Kings'.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #686 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 5:59pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 4:13pm:

Morality, Justice, and Fairness are ideas created in the human cortex brain, and therefore exist in nature's slaughter-house, ie, since the appearance of homo sapiens c. 300K years ago, and developed over that time.

They are concepts which are universally attractive to humans, at the abstract level.

You can try arguing those three things are not universally attractive.....

In contrast to the delusional idea of 'natural individual rights' which didn't "exist in nature" for most of that 300K years - when humans were NOT at the top of the food chain in nature's slaughter-house.... a false concept which significantly came into being during the enlightenment, as a result of men trying to find a basis for rule of law after the collapse of the 'Divine Right of Kings'.

Equality before the law is a concept that has existed for thousands of years, as is the concept that individuals must be judged in the context of their legal standing.

The Biblical Ten Commandments, the transgression of which, is one codification by which an individual was to be judged.

The individual's right to defend himself is particularly evident in the 9th commandment - thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour - which provides the grounds to exercise an individual right to challenge a witness.

This process of justice is also echoed in ancient Greece in Plato's dialogue 'The Apology of Socrates' (apology in this context means defence) where Socrates had the right as an Athenian citizen to defend himself.

Are there any historical references to similar individual rights in Chinese culture?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82811 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #687 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 8:30pm Most of the foundations of civilisation are the unwritten rules about how we handle things and treat one another. Those things are either absorbed at a parent's knee or they are never absorbed ....
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goosecat

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Re: foundations
Reply #688 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 10:55pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:50am:

She cannot define any of the words and phrases she uses, because it is all just propaganda from the Chinese Communist Party. There is nothing behind it. It's a hodge-podge of CCP policies and thought bubbles wrapped in western-sounding catch phrases. But she also cannot admit it comes from the CCP, or appeal to a sense of Chinese racism or Chinese superiority like the CCP does at home. So instead it has the appearance of coming from no-where and having no basis in rational thought or ideology. The Communist party long ago abandoned the ideology of communism, so there is not even that.

It's like the Labor party invented it's own branch of economics, philosophy, etc, that just happened to match every aspect of ALP policy, then got its supporters to start promoting it while pretending is is something entirely new or something accepted by academia as a full and coherent philosophy.

You mean like inventing your own branch of history, philosophy called; "The Foundations Of Modern Civilisation" that just happens to match every aspect of FD policy. lol

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« Last Edit: Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:05pm by goosecat »

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #689 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 11:13pm

"By applying the standards of morality, justice and fairness,"

OK - set those in place for us by tomorrow evening..... I won't be holding my breath.... perhaps the UN will send you a plane load of those overnight if you ask them.... you can set them in place starting first thing tomorrow... oops... today now... or do you need an extra day?

Bonus question:- Do you ever discuss anything other than in generalities and theories?

BBQ:- Which country do you propose to start with first?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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