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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #720 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:17pm:

My extensive reply to Frank explains WHY I believe rule of law designed to achieve shared prosperity and security is necessary, not "natural individual rights".

ONLY free individuals, coming together freely, can create laws that they all, individually and together, accept and submit to.

Nonsense; Hammurabi created the first written laws (c. 1750BC) codifying "justice", everyone accepted and submitted.

Quote:

THey will be equal before such laws, in defending their individual rights - there aren't any other - and surrendering to the judgemeent of such laws.

More nonsense; indivdual rights aren't the same as universal rights. eg article 23, UNUDHR: "everyone has a right to above-poverty employment".

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« Last Edit: Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:37pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #721 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm The problem with Muslims adopting the golden rule is that a lot of them probably would want you to kill them if they insulted the prophet, abandoned Islam, had sex with someone they are not allowed to etc.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #722 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:02pm

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:21pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:43am:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:00am:

The golden rule does not appear in the Koran

"He who saves a life, saves all mankind": Koran 5.32.

So how does he who takes a life fit in?

Contradictions exist in all scripture - which is NOT "the Word Of God", but the words of men...

What are the contradictions in Mao Tse Tung Thought and Xi Ping Pong Thought?

I actually haven't read the little red book or Xi's thoughts, have you?

Possible they contain contradictions....

But why the diversion? Can't debate the issue at hand, ie sources and foundations of ideas, and their relation to reality?

You haven't dealt with justice yet, neverlone the 'golden rule'.

I take it you have conceded #704.

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« Last Edit: Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:46pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #723 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:48pm:

Wrong. All explained for you in #704; please address that post.

It's confused bollocks. Natural individual right are erroneous - your common prosperity is correct.

But you do not explain why other than introducing moronic slogans like 'nature's slaughter house', slogans befitting mao's little red book chanting slogans.

If morality and fairness are natural, how is individual rights not natural. And if the idea of Common prosperioty is natural, why is individual prosperity not? What constitites the 'common', after all, if not the individuals?

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #724 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:39pm .
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #725 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:42pm .
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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #726 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:44pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:02pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:21pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:43am:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:00am:

The golden rule does not appear in the Koran

"He who saves a life, saves all mankind": Koran 5.32.

So how does he who takes a life fit in?

Contradictions exist in all scripture - which is NOT "the Word Of God", but the words of men...

What are the contradictions in Mao Tse Tung Thought and Xi Ping Pong Thought?

I actually haven't read the little red book or Xi's thoughts, have you?

Possible they contain contradictions....

But why the diversion? Can't debate the issue at hand?

No diversion.
The contradictions in your parroting have been pointed out many times, by everyone who engaged with you.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #727 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:46pm

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm:

The problem with Muslims adopting the golden rule is that a lot of them probably would want you to kill them if they insulted the prophet, abandoned Islam, had sex with someone they are not allowed to etc.

Oh, well - there are core and non-core tenets of any religion of peace.... you understand.... some of the rules are more guidelines ....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82811 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #728 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:47pm stop the state voices
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82811 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #729 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:47pm open range for all open range australia
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #730 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:02pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:21pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:43am:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:00am:

The golden rule does not appear in the Koran

"He who saves a life, saves all mankind": Koran 5.32.

So how does he who takes a life fit in?

Contradictions exist in all scripture - which is NOT "the Word Of God", but the words of men...

What are the contradictions in Mao Tse Tung Thought and Xi Ping Pong Thought?

I actually haven't read the little red book or Xi's thoughts, have you?

Possible they contain contradictions....

But why the diversion? Can't debate the issue at hand, ie sources and foundations of ideas, and their relation to reality?

You haven't dealt with justice yet, neverlone the 'golden rule'.

I take it you have conceded #704.

Yes - in the 1960's The Little Red Book and Mao and Che on Guerilla Warfare were mandatory reading for certain types....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #731 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:51pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:02pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:21pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:43am:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:00am:

The golden rule does not appear in the Koran

"He who saves a life, saves all mankind": Koran 5.32.

So how does he who takes a life fit in?

Contradictions exist in all scripture - which is NOT "the Word Of God", but the words of men...

What are the contradictions in Mao Tse Tung Thought and Xi Ping Pong Thought?

I actually haven't read the little red book or Xi's thoughts, have you?

Possible they contain contradictions....

But why the diversion? Can't debate the issue at hand?

No diversion.
The contradictions in your parroting have been pointed out many times, by everyone who engaged with you.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #732 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 3:12pm

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:10pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:48pm:

Wrong. All explained for you in #704; please address that post.

It's confused bollocks. Natural individual right are erroneous - your common prosperity is correct.

Wrong again; common prosperty MAY be achievable, whereas delusional 'natural individual rights' entrenches warfare (the persistent human plague, throughout history).

Quote:

But you do not explain why other than introducing moronic slogans like 'nature's slaughter house', slogans befitting mao's little red book chanting slogans.

Er.... the food chain on earth is not a "slogan", and indeed continuous warfare makes a mockery of the individual's "right" to life.

Quote:

If morality and fairness are natural,....

Did you miss it in #704? Morality and fairness exist in men's cortex brains, but the natural world - manifested in the food chain - doesn't give two hoots about such ideas, nor to "individual natural rights". Nature is only concerned with the propagation of life in the aggregate, not the "rights" of individuals.

Quote:

...but how is individual rights not natural. And if the idea of Common prosperioty is natural, why is individual prosperity not? What constitites the 'common', after all, if not the individuals?

Your error explained above: ideas in men's brains may or may not be based in the realities of life on this planet; whether such ideas are "natural" or not requires a definition of natural, because "rights" - like "morality/justice/fairness" don't exist in nature, only in men's brains.

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« Last Edit: Mar 20^th, 2024 at 3:24pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #733 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 3:18pm

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:44pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:02pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:21pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:43am:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:00am:

The golden rule does not appear in the Koran

"He who saves a life, saves all mankind": Koran 5.32.

So how does he who takes a life fit in?

Contradictions exist in all scripture - which is NOT "the Word Of God", but the words of men...

What are the contradictions in Mao Tse Tung Thought and Xi Ping Pong Thought?

I actually haven't read the little red book or Xi's thoughts, have you?

Possible they contain contradictions....

But why the diversion? Can't debate the issue at hand?

No diversion.
The contradictions in your parroting have been pointed out many times, by everyone who engaged with you.

Try this for a contradiction:

'natural individual rights' - which resist outlawing war (as Doc Evatt discovered when he resisted the UNSC member's demands for the power of veto) veto, and the 'right to life'...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #734 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 3:22pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 2:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:02pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:21pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:43am:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 11:00am:

The golden rule does not appear in the Koran

"He who saves a life, saves all mankind": Koran 5.32.

So how does he who takes a life fit in?

Contradictions exist in all scripture - which is NOT "the Word Of God", but the words of men...

What are the contradictions in Mao Tse Tung Thought and Xi Ping Pong Thought?

I actually haven't read the little red book or Xi's thoughts, have you?

Possible they contain contradictions....

But why the diversion? Can't debate the issue at hand, ie sources and foundations of ideas, and their relation to reality?

You haven't dealt with justice yet, neverlone the 'golden rule'.

I take it you have conceded #704.

Yes - in the 1960's The Little Red Book and Mao and Che on Guerilla Warfare were mandatory reading for certain types....

Revolutionaries and conservatives all have their own "scriptures", like the preamble to the US constitution.

"We hold these truth to be self-evident..."

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