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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #735 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 3:23pm .
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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #736 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 3:12pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:10pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:48pm:

Wrong. All explained for you in #704; please address that post.

It's confused bollocks. Natural individual right are erroneous - your common prosperity is correct.

Wrong again; common prosperty MAY be achievable, whereas delusional 'natural individual rights' entrenches warfare (the persistent human plague, throughout history).

Only a moron like you, a CCP shill, would try to draw a causal link between individual rights and entenched warfare.

You must be really pissed off by Amnesty International, the UNHCR, the Australian Human Rights Commision and all the rest as red-iin-claw lizard brained warmongers.

You are an idiot.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11227 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #737 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:54pm There is no closing the gap between East Asian collectivist cultural mindsets and Western individualist cultural ones.
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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11227 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #738 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:55pm .
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #739 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 9:32pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:54pm: There is no closing the gap between East Asian collectivist cultural mindsets and Western individualist cultural ones. China has a bigger wealth gap than Australia. They may chant the communist slogans, but they are capitalists at heart.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #740 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 9:46pm

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 9:32pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:54pm:

There is no closing the gap between East Asian collectivist cultural mindsets and Western individualist cultural ones.

China has a bigger wealth gap than Australia. They may chant the communist slogans, but they are capitalists at heart.

I'd be surprised if the majority of Chinese peoples support the CCP and 'communism' (more like blatant totalitarianism).

I'd also be surprised if the Chinese superstate would survive the collapse of the CCP, although it would almost certainly be succeeded by a brutal (probably military) dictatorship.

As for poverty, there has been a lot of evidence evading CCP censorship that indicates that poverty is common throughout rural China.

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #741 - Mar 20^th, 2024 at 10:07pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 9:46pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 9:32pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:54pm:

There is no closing the gap between East Asian collectivist cultural mindsets and Western individualist cultural ones.

China has a bigger wealth gap than Australia. They may chant the communist slogans, but they are capitalists at heart.

I'd be surprised if the majority of Chinese peoples support the CCP and 'communism' (more like blatant totalitarianism).

I'd also be surprised if the Chinese superstate would survive the collapse of the CCP, although it would almost certainly be succeeded by a brutal (probably military) dictatorship.

As for poverty, there has been a lot of evidence evading CCP censorship that indicates that poverty is common throughout rural China.

Even the people with jobs are dirt poor by our standards. The median wage is a fraction of what our unemployment benefits are.

Even the CCP doesn't support communism any more.

I think it could go either way if the CCP collapsed. Even if it survives they are in for interesting times. The one thing it won't do is stay the way it is now. The people have a taste of economic freedom and democracy now, and the internet is giving many of them a taste of free speech, if they are IT savvy enough. That's why our resident little pink is railing so hard against freedom and democracy. Despite the CCP embracing them rapidly and in huge doses, they also fear losing control of the change they have brought about. They will want to embrace the British rather than the French model for transition.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82811 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #742 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 1:04am Well - we hold these truths as self-evident. Get a new copy of your translator..... Been watching 'Masters Of the Skies' - Many loss Flying Bǎolěi struggle in sky until Wild Horse escort!!
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #743 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 1:07am

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 9:32pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:54pm:

There is no closing the gap between East Asian collectivist cultural mindsets and Western individualist cultural ones.

China has a bigger wealth gap than Australia. They may chant the communist slogans, but they are capitalists at heart.

Ha, ha - preferring term 'capitarist'..... Plesident man of people only worth many billion ..... not make money from position.. onry confrict of intelest if rate too low...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #744 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 5:55am

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 10:07pm:

ven the people with jobs are dirt poor by our standards. The median wage is a fraction of what our unemployment benefits are.

Even the CCP doesn't support communism any more.

I think it could go either way if the CCP collapsed. Even if it survives they are in for interesting times. The one thing it won't do is stay the way it is now. The people have a taste of economic freedom and democracy now, and the internet is giving many of them a taste of free speech, if they are IT savvy enough. That's why our resident little pink is railing so hard against freedom and democracy. Despite the CCP embracing them rapidly and in huge doses, they also fear losing control of the change they have brought about. They will want to embrace the British rather than the French model for transition.

That would be the most optimistic outcome in the event of the CCP's collapse.

The collapse of the Soviet Union and the chaos of its aftermath genuinely terrified both the CCP and Chinese peoples, and proved to them and the world that the collapse of a superstate is catastrophic - that democracy is impossible to impose on multiethnic, multicultural and multireligious peoples and have it just work.

Democracy cannot instantly be established by peoples of a superstate who have never known it - underlying ethnic tensions would surface almost immediately and be thrashed out in blood.

And nevermind that trade with the likes of Australia and the EU would likely collapse overnight.

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #745 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:12am

Quote:

The collapse of the Soviet Union and the chaos of its aftermath genuinely terrified both the CCP and Chinese peoples, and proved to them and the world that the collapse of a superstate is catastrophic

The Russians off lightly. So far.

Quote:

Democracy cannot instantly be established by peoples of a superstate who have never known it

You think the Chinese have never known it?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #746 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:20am

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:12am:

Quote:

The collapse of the Soviet Union and the chaos of its aftermath genuinely terrified both the CCP and Chinese peoples, and proved to them and the world that the collapse of a superstate is catastrophic

The Russians off lightly. So far.

Quote:

Democracy cannot instantly be established by peoples of a superstate who have never known it

You think the Chinese have never known it?

Life for the Russians between 1991 and 2000 was a disaster - it's the reason Putin has remained so popular among Russians.

Democracy requires a stable infrastructure of political parties whose leaders and apparatchiks are prepared to thrash out political jousting peacefully, concede defeat peacefully and allow the transfer of power peacefully. Chinese peoples on the mainland have never experienced that.

And then there are the ethno/cultural/religious and economic structures...

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #747 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:33am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:20am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:12am:

Quote:

The collapse of the Soviet Union and the chaos of its aftermath genuinely terrified both the CCP and Chinese peoples, and proved to them and the world that the collapse of a superstate is catastrophic

The Russians off lightly. So far.

Quote:

Democracy cannot instantly be established by peoples of a superstate who have never known it

You think the Chinese have never known it?

Life for the Russians between 1991 and 2000 was a disaster - it's the reason Putin has remained so popular among Russians.

Democracy requires a stable infrastructure of political parties whose leaders and apparatchiks are prepared to thrash out political jousting peacefully, concede defeat peacefully and allow the transfer of power peacefully. Chinese peoples on the mainland have never experienced that.

And then there are the ethno/cultural/religious and economic structures...

Compounding that, would be the enormous psychological impact of having been reduced from a world superpower to effectively third-world status almost at the stroke of a pen and the lowering of a flag, as what happened to Russians.

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #748 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:38am

Quote:

Life for the Russians between 1991 and 2000 was a disaster

How many of them were killed?

Quote:

Democracy requires a stable infrastructure of political parties whose leaders and apparatchiks are prepared to thrash out political jousting peacefully

You got the peaceful bit right. The first benefit of democracy is you avoid civil war every time the leadership changes. Beyond that, if the people want stability, they will vote for it.

Quote:

Compounding that, would be the enormous psychological impact of having been reduced from a world superpower to effectively third-world status

I doubt your average Russian really cares too much about status. They are more worried about their sons being sent to die in Ukraine.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #749 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:50am

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:38am:

Quote:

Life for the Russians between 1991 and 2000 was a disaster

How many of them were killed?

Quote:

Democracy requires a stable infrastructure of political parties whose leaders and apparatchiks are prepared to thrash out political jousting peacefully

You got the peaceful bit right. The first benefit of democracy is you avoid civil war every time the leadership changes. Beyond that, if the people want stability, they will vote for it.

Quote:

Compounding that, would be the enormous psychological impact of having been reduced from a world superpower to effectively third-world status

I doubt your average Russian really cares too much about status. They are more worried about their sons being sent to die in Ukraine.

How many were killed? How many Russians were out of a job overnight? How many were the victims of organised crime gangs run largely by former senior Soviets and their beneficiaries?

It's hard to avoid civil war when the ethnic lines and animosity are so clear - can anyone imagine Tibetans wanting to remain in a new federated Chinese superstate? How about Cantonese speakers of the south? Xinjiang? Hong Kong?

Russians were deeply affected by the loss of the Cold War and the collapse of their power and influence in Eastern Europe and its diminishing in the southern central Asian republics.

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