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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #750 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:52am Quote: Russians were deeply affected How? Were the propaganda taps finally turned off? Quote: How many were the victims of organised crime gangs Do they have gulags?
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #751 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:04am

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 6:52am:

Quote:

Russians were deeply affected

How? Were the propaganda taps finally turned off?

Quote:

How many were the victims of organised crime gangs

Do they have gulags?

A peoples' sense of themselves is established over decades - sometimes by sheer propaganda, as was the case in the Soviet Union and is still the case among the Han Chinese under the CCP.

The Australian equivalent would be if, overnight, our economy collapsed because its strength and influence were all conjured up by smoke and mirrors and political jiggery-pokery.

For Russians during 1991 and 2000, millions went from at least having a job, a comfortable place to live and enough to buy food, to jobless, unable to afford to keep their home and unable to purchase enough food, either due to lack of money or that the infrastructure providing food had collapsed. These were the reasons Putin established an oligarchy -to claw back funds and the nation's treasure that had been stolen during the 90s.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 11793 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #752 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:04am .
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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 11793 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #753 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:04am .
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Yadda

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Re: foundations
Reply #754 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:52am

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2024 at 2:53pm:

The Foundations of Modern Civilisation

Power
Wealth
Liberty

Universal Education
Women’s Rights
Freedom of the Press
Constraint of Monopoly
Economic Rights

Human Rights
Rejection of Slavery
Rejection of Corruption

Democracy
Equality Before the Law

The Foundations of Modern Civilisation

freediver,

To me, those sound more like 'ideals'.

In the way, that COMMUNISM too, is an ideal.

Dreamers.

ideal = =
1 most suitable; perfect.
2 desirable or perfect but existing only in the imagination.

4444444444444444444

freediver,
Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds. Grin

e.g.
Democracy.......'Democracy' is what we 'experience' on election day.
It is.........'government by the people' [on one day, on an 'election day'], by choosing 'representatives', who will sit in a parliament house.

freediver,
Is that what you are referring to, when you say, Democracy ???

A FEW QUESTIONS......
Who do these 'representatives' listen to......
[in forming the way in which >> they << will vote in >> their << parliament] ?

Are our 'representatives' all independently minded ?

Are our 'representatives' all persons of integrity ? - how can anyone know this is so [on the day on which they are selected/elected] ?

Equality Before the Law........Requires a functioning justice system.
e.g.
Deuteronomy 25:1
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them;
then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

.........otherwise, 'Equality Before the Law' is a meaningless and impotent concept,
>> when there, if there << is no meaningful redress for the victims of crimes/wrongdoings.

impotent = = helpless or powerless.

And then.......there are all of the other 'mis-conceptions' listed above on your......

The Foundations of Modern Civilisation - PYRAMID

.

QUOTES........

Freedom, means not having to lie.
- ?

If one wishes to enslave people, constrain their capacity for independent thought - not their hands; for the chain of dependence is incomparably stronger than the chain of iron.
- Law V Freedom by Anthony L. Hargis

Nobody is ever going to come, and fight injustice to make you free!
The only way to be free, is to believe that you ARE free!
To live your life as though you are a free person!
Freedom begins when we seize freedom for ourselves.
- ?

None can love freedom so heartily, but good men; the rest have not freedom, but licence.
- John Hamilton

People may say, or believe that they fight for 'truth' or for 'freedom'.
But really, when a person fights it is only for one purpose; and that is to impose his 'will' upon others.
- ?

The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom is Courage.
- Thucydides, Pericles' Funeral Oration

To be legitimate, a government must derive its authority from those who are governed.
- Law vs Freedom

Where justice reigns, 'tis freedom to obey.
- James Montgomery

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #755 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am Quote: Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for, but they certainly have never been established foundations, in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds. They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #756 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:18am

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 3:12pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 1:10pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:48pm:

Wrong. All explained for you in #704; please address that post.

It's confused bollocks. Natural individual right are erroneous - your common prosperity is correct.

Wrong again; common prosperty MAY be achievable, whereas delusional 'natural individual rights' entrenches warfare (the persistent human plague, throughout history).

Only a moron like you, a CCP shill, would try to draw a causal link between individual rights and entenched warfare.

It was an example: common prosperty MAY be achievable, but 'natural individual rights' is incompatible with shared prosperity, because natural competition between individuals results in winners and losers.

Quote:

You must be really pissed off by Amnesty International, the UNHCR, the Australian Human Rights Commision and all the rest as red-iin-claw lizard brained warmongers.

Indeed I am.

They are all signed up to the absurd propostion of "legal" war, consequent to the widespread 'natural individual rights' delusion - backed by the veto in the UNSC.

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #757 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:25am

Quote:

It was an example: common prosperty MAY be achievable, but 'natural individual rights' is incompatible with shared prosperity, because natural competition between individuals results in winners and losers.

Can you give a single example where common prosperity has ever been achieved without granting people individual rights and freedoms? Or is it only sticking the word natural in front of it that you object to?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #758 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:26am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:54pm:

There is no closing the gap between East Asian collectivist cultural mindsets and Western individualist cultural ones.

I'm here to explain the gap.

We are all humans, naturally competitive and self-interested, yet capable of thinking non-instinctively.

Hence the gap CAN change over time, as ideas are exchanged and examined.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #759 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #760 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:18am:

They are all signed up to the absurd propostion of "legal" war, consequent to the widespread 'natural individual rights' delusion - backed by the veto in the UNSC.

Neither individualist nor collectivist cultural national mindsets are unilaterally responsible for war - both will initiate or endorse it if it is in their interests to do so.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #761 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:31am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:26am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:54pm:

There is no closing the gap between East Asian collectivist cultural mindsets and Western individualist cultural ones.

I'm here to explain the gap.

We are all humans, naturally competitive and self-interested, yet capable of thinking non-instinctively.

Hence the gap CAN change over time, as ideas are exchanged and examined.

Can it? How? You are a hard-core anti-individualist. What would change your mind?

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #762 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:32am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

When was the last war that was fought with both sides of the conflict being liberal democracies?

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Yadda

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Re: foundations
Reply #763 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:33am

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2024 at 2:53pm:

The Foundations of Modern Civilisation

Power
Wealth
Liberty

Universal Education
Women’s Rights
Freedom of the Press
Constraint of Monopoly
Economic Rights

Human Rights
Rejection of Slavery
Rejection of Corruption

Democracy
Equality Before the Law

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

ARGUMENT;
It is the enforcement of a 'proper' and 'moral' system of Law and Order in a society
[i.e. the efficient, practical and conscientious protection of the-rights-in-law,
of 'the individual' [i.e. EVERY individual], within 'the state'],
which will be the principle guarantor of all social stability in any society/community of free men.

Only, a system of widely respected and enforced laws,
will establish and guarantee, social order and social peace in that community.

A functional justice system is absolutely essential, wherever free men choose to come together, to establish a civil community for the common good [i.e. the 'common-wealth'] of all those individuals who belong to that community of free men.

.

Deuteronomy 25:1
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them;
then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #764 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:36am

Yadda wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:52am:

People may say, or believe that they fight for 'truth' or for 'freedom'.
But really, when a person fights it is only for one purpose; and that is to impose his 'will' upon others.
- ?

Indeed - the awful history of the human race.

Quote:

The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom is Courage.
- Thucydides, Pericles' Funeral Oration

Sophistry and waffle.

Define happiness, freedom and courage.

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