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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #765 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:39am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

That is just an idiotic, baseless assertion.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #766 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:39am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:31am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:26am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 6:54pm:

There is no closing the gap between East Asian collectivist cultural mindsets and Western individualist cultural ones.

I'm here to explain the gap.

We are all humans, naturally competitive and self-interested, yet capable of thinking non-instinctively.

Hence the gap CAN change over time, as ideas are exchanged and examined.

Can it? How? You are a hard-core anti-individualist. What would change your mind?

Outlawing war and systemic poverty.

Then I would be a Libertarian.....

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Yadda

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Re: foundations
Reply #767 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:42am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:36am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:52am:

People may say, or believe that they fight for 'truth' or for 'freedom'.
But really, when a person fights it is only for one purpose; and that is to impose his 'will' upon others.
- ?

Indeed - the awful history of the human race.

As per........

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."

- Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #768 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:59am

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:25am:

Quote:

It was an example: common prosperty MAY be achievable, but 'natural individual rights' is incompatible with shared prosperity, because natural competition between individuals results in winners and losers.

Can you give a single example where common prosperity has ever been achieved without granting people individual rights and freedoms?

So far it's NEVER been achieved (but don't despair, economists have the capacity to become enlightened), nor has the granting of individual rights and freedoms ever achieved common prosperity (though in the West for 2 decades after WW2, it was close, in the Keynesian welfare state era) - because naturally competitve, and self-interested individuals engender a system of winners and losers.

Quote:

Or is it only sticking the word natural in front of it that you object to?

We ARE 'naturally' competitive and self-interested.

The task for government is to manage those traits, to create common prosperity.

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« Last Edit: Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:14am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #769 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:03am

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

That is just an idiotic, baseless assertion.

Apparently more people have been killed in wars since WW2 than were killed in that war itself.

Every generation in history has been affected by the scourge of war.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #770 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:10am

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:32am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

When was the last war that was fought with both sides of the conflict being liberal democracies?

Never, because the "liberal democracies" have all signed up to US military hegemony.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #771 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:13am

Yadda wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:42am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:36am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:52am:

People may say, or believe that they fight for 'truth' or for 'freedom'.
But really, when a person fights it is only for one purpose; and that is to impose his 'will' upon others.
- ?

Indeed - the awful history of the human race.

As per........

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."

- Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian

An ancient 'might is right' war monger.

"Right" is universal, we ought all be 'equal' under law.

[/quote]

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #772 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:18am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:59am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:25am:

[quote]
Can you give a single example where common prosperity has ever been achieved without granting people individual rights and freedoms?

So far it's NEVER been achieved (but don't despair, economists have the capacity to become enlightened), nor has the granting of individual rights and freedoms ever achieved common prosperity (though in the West for 2 decades after WW2, it was close, in the Keynesian welfare state era) - because naturally competitve, and self-interested individuals engender a system of winners and losers.

What causes people, including Chinese, to storm the southern border of the US in their hundreds of thousands?

What causes thousands of people to risk their lives in rickety boats to come to Australia, the UK, or Europe?

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #773 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:28am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:03am:

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

That is just an idiotic, baseless assertion.

Apparently more people have been killed in wars since WW2 than were killed in that war itself.

Every generation in history has been affected by the scourge of war.

Number of civilians starved to death in peceful, common prosperity communist China since 1949 - 30-55 million.
Civilian deaths in the peaceful, common prosperity communist Soviet famines of the 1930s - 8 Million.

Number of people starved to death in liberal democratic capitalist Western countries since WWII - 0.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #774 - Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:29am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:10am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:32am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

When was the last war that was fought with both sides of the conflict being liberal democracies?

Never, because the "liberal democracies" have all signed up to US military hegemony.

Well, that MUST be a good thing, then.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #775 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:05am .
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #776 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:11am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:18am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:59am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:25am:

[quote]
Can you give a single example where common prosperity has ever been achieved without granting people individual rights and freedoms?

So far it's NEVER been achieved (but don't despair, economists have the capacity to become enlightened), nor has the granting of individual rights and freedoms ever achieved common prosperity (though in the West for 2 decades after WW2, it was close, in the Keynesian welfare state era) - because naturally competitve, and self-interested individuals engender a system of winners and losers.

What causes people, including Chinese, to storm the southern border of the US in their hundreds of thousands?

Failing economies at home.

(Can you link to the number of Chinese at the US border?, CCP-hating Chinese usually gain entry to the US).

Quote:

What causes thousands of people to risk their lives in rickety boats to come to Australia, the UK, or Europe?

War and poverty; they aren't aware poverty also exists in 1st world countries, so they take their chances.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #777 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:17am

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:28am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:03am:

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

That is just an idiotic, baseless assertion.

Apparently more people have been killed in wars since WW2 than were killed in that war itself.

Every generation in history has been affected by the scourge of war.

Number of civilians starved to death in peceful, common prosperity communist China since 1949 - 30-55 million.

China wan't peaceful during the 'Cultural Revolution".

Quote:

Civilian deaths in the peaceful, common prosperity communist Soviet famines of the 1930s - 8 Million.

Ditto - Stalinist repression and economic mismagement were not "peaceful".

Quote:

Number of people starved to death in liberal democratic capitalist Western countries since WWII - 0.

Yet life expectancy in the US has stagnated and is now on par with China which has seen a rapid increase since 1980.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #778 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:23am

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:29am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:10am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:32am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

When was the last war that was fought with both sides of the conflict being liberal democracies?

Never, because the "liberal democracies" have all signed up to US military hegemony.

Well, that MUST be a good thing, then.

The liberal democracies all kow-towing to the US?

It's not a good thing; Oz can't eradicate poverty because it has to hide behind the US's skirts. Cost for US designed nuclear subs alone: $380 billion.

The liberal democracies' idea of 'rules-based order' is enrtrenched poverty for the least advantaged.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #779 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:24am .
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