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Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 43638 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #780 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:25am Why was there a Cultural Revolution in China and Stalinist repression in Russia when they were not at war with anyone yet tens of millions were killed by their very own "common prosperity and consensus ideologues"? Please explain.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #781 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:33am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:17am:

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:28am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:03am:

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

That is just an idiotic, baseless assertion.

Apparently more people have been killed in wars since WW2 than were killed in that war itself.

Every generation in history has been affected by the scourge of war.

Number of civilians starved to death in peceful, common prosperity communist China since 1949 - 30-55 million.

China wan't peaceful during the 'Cultural Revolution".

Quote:

Civilian deaths in the peaceful, common prosperity communist Soviet famines of the 1930s - 8 Million.

Ditto - Stalinist repression and economic mismagement were not "peaceful".

Quote:

Number of people starved to death in liberal democratic capitalist Western countries since WWII - 0.

Yet life expectancy in the US has stagnated and is now on par with China which has seen a rapid increase since 1980.

More than 37,000 Chinese migrants were detained at the U.S.'s southwestern land border in 2023, nearly 10 times the year-earlier tally

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Chinese-migrants-flock-...

Do you think that Western-nations' poverty is comparable to Asian/African poverty in severity and degree?

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11227 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #782 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:33am .
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #783 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:12am .
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #784 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:21am

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:25am:

Why was there a Cultural Revolution in China and Stalinist repression in Russia when they were not at war with anyone yet tens of millions were killed by their very own "common prosperity and consensus ideologues"?
Please explain.

Did you miss it?

Economic and cultural mismanagement.

Whereas the recent "two sessions' conference of leading economists and politicians in Beijing outlines the path to "common prosperity", to maintain the momentum of the fatest reduction of poverty by any nation in history over the last four decades.

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« Last Edit: Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:14am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #785 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:34am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:33am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:17am:

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:28am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:03am:

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

That is just an idiotic, baseless assertion.

Apparently more people have been killed in wars since WW2 than were killed in that war itself.

Every generation in history has been affected by the scourge of war.

Number of civilians starved to death in peceful, common prosperity communist China since 1949 - 30-55 million.

China wan't peaceful during the 'Cultural Revolution".

Quote:

Civilian deaths in the peaceful, common prosperity communist Soviet famines of the 1930s - 8 Million.

Ditto - Stalinist repression and economic mismagement were not "peaceful".

Quote:

Number of people starved to death in liberal democratic capitalist Western countries since WWII - 0.

Yet life expectancy in the US has stagnated and is now on par with China which has seen a rapid increase since 1980.

More than 37,000 Chinese migrants were detained at the U.S.'s southwestern land border in 2023, nearly 10 times the year-earlier tally

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Chinese-migrants-flock-...

So... economic problems in China are causing Chinese to join other escapees from failing economies all around the world.

The relentless US attack on China's economy - banning numerous Chinese companies from international trade, and bullying other countries to do likewise must be working.

All on trumped-up "China threat" lies, 'national security' bs,

Quote:

Do you think that Western-nations' poverty is comparable to Asian/African poverty in severity and degree?

No.

But I know that US/IMF global hegemony is responsible for much of that poverty.

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« Last Edit: Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:14am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #786 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:35am .
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #787 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:48am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:33am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:17am:

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:28am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 10:03am:

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2024 at 7:55am:

Quote:

Those may be 'ideals' for human societies to aim for,
but they certainly have never been established foundations,
in reality, for more that a few nano-seconds.

They have been established foundations for as long as civilisation as we have come to know it has been established.

So....how come the most characteristic, persistent human behaviour has been continuous warfare?

That is just an idiotic, baseless assertion.

Apparently more people have been killed in wars since WW2 than were killed in that war itself.

Every generation in history has been affected by the scourge of war.

Number of civilians starved to death in peceful, common prosperity communist China since 1949 - 30-55 million.

China wan't peaceful during the 'Cultural Revolution".

Quote:

Civilian deaths in the peaceful, common prosperity communist Soviet famines of the 1930s - 8 Million.

Ditto - Stalinist repression and economic mismagement were not "peaceful".

Quote:

Number of people starved to death in liberal democratic capitalist Western countries since WWII - 0.

Yet life expectancy in the US has stagnated and is now on par with China which has seen a rapid increase since 1980.

More than 37,000 Chinese migrants were detained at the U.S.'s southwestern land border in 2023, nearly 10 times the year-earlier tally

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Chinese-migrants-flock-...

So - poor economic cindtions in China have resulted in Chinese joining escapees fron failing economies all around the world, under the aegis of dysfunctional US/IMF global hegemony.

Apparently the US's relentless attack on China's eeconomy is working - based on lies about "China threat", lies about "human rights", and outright bullying of other nations to join the US-led "decoupling".

Quote:

Do you think that Western-nations' poverty is comparable to Asian/African poverty in severity and degree?

No. But the refugees aren't aware of the poverty in the West, so they are inclined to take their chances.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #788 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:50am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:34am:

So... economic problems in China are causing Chinese to join other escapees from failing economies all around the world.

The relentless US attack on China's economy - banning numerous Chinese companies from international trade, and bullying other countries to do likewise must be working.

All on trumped-up "China threat" lies, 'national security' bs,

Quote:

Do you think that Western-nations' poverty is comparable to Asian/African poverty in severity and degree?

No.

But I know that US/IMF global hegemony is responsible for much of that poverty.

The CCP's economy is crumbling - no CCP apparatchik now risks informing Xi Jinping of anything anymore, as Xi has a habit of shooting the messenger - sometimes literally. He now gets his news from other world leaders.

The CCP's last parting 'gift' will be its collapse which will almost certainly trigger a collapse of the Chinese superstate - with tsunami-like effects on the region and the world.

Better for us that the Chinese people rot under a limping CCP.

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« Last Edit: Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:07am by MeisterEckhart »

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #789 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:03am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:21am:

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:25am:

Why was there a Cultural Revolution in China and Stalinist repression in Russia when they were not at war with anyone yet tens of millions were killed by their very own "common prosperity and consensus ideologues"?
Please explain.

Did you miss it?

Economic and cultural mismagement.

But is that possible in a meritorious, consensus based, common prosperity planned economy and society?

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #790 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:46am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:17pm:

My extensive reply to Frank explains WHY I believe rule of law designed to achieve shared prosperity and security is necessary, not "natural individual rights".

ONLY free individuals, coming together freely, can create laws that they all, individually and together, accept and submit to.

Nonsense; Hammurabi created the first written laws (c. 1750BC) codifying "justice", everyone accepted and submitted.

Quote:

THey will be equal before such laws, in defending their individual rights - there aren't any other - and surrendering to the judgemeent of such laws.

More nonsense; indivdual rights aren't the same as universal rights. eg article 23, UNUDHR: "everyone has a right to above-poverty employment".

Who is "everyone" if not individuals??

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 82810 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #791 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 1:20pm Behold Ozymandias... conqueror of worlds.... there, my lord! THERE lie your foundations that once held such high hope for humanity!! The white ants have devoured the stone......
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 82810 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #792 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 1:22pm Good old TGD..... comparative poverty... You Australian make $30 one hour - we make $30 one week... you rich!!
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 82810 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #793 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 2:12pm "Economic and cultural mismagement. " Is that an admission that economic and cultural social science is a form of magic and not reality? Go - tell it to the smart-arses who lie about their 'cultural heritage' to gain possession of things of value to all... tell them that they who lie here have failed in their duty....
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #794 - Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 2:15pm

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:46am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:17pm:

My extensive reply to Frank explains WHY I believe rule of law designed to achieve shared prosperity and security is necessary, not "natural individual rights".

ONLY free individuals, coming together freely, can create laws that they all, individually and together, accept and submit to.

Nonsense; Hammurabi created the first written laws (c. 1750BC) codifying "justice", everyone accepted and submitted.

Quote:

THey will be equal before such laws, in defending their individual rights - there aren't any other - and surrendering to the judgemeent of such laws.

More nonsense; indivdual rights aren't the same as universal rights. eg article 23, UNUDHR: "everyone has a right to above-poverty employment".

Who is "everyone" if not individuals??

At least he's come to the point of accepting 'individual rights' - which, sadly for his philosophy, also incorporate all basic human rights.... and that without a solid (gasps) foundation of both operating together, there is no valid set of rights...

Now then - about my right to enjoy National Parks held in trust for the entirety of the people by government bodies, and not up for sale to anyone for any price?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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