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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #795 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:38am

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:46am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:17pm:

My extensive reply to Frank explains WHY I believe rule of law designed to achieve shared prosperity and security is necessary, not "natural individual rights".

ONLY free individuals, coming together freely, can create laws that they all, individually and together, accept and submit to.

Nonsense; Hammurabi created the first written laws (c. 1750BC) codifying "justice", everyone accepted and submitted.

Quote:

THey will be equal before such laws, in defending their individual rights - there aren't any other - and surrendering to the judgemeent of such laws.

More nonsense; indivdual rights aren't the same as universal rights. eg article 23, UNUDHR: "everyone has a right to above-poverty employment".

Who is "everyone" if not individuals??

Fallacy of composition.

Everyone = the total of individuals.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #796 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:43am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 1:22pm:

Good old TGD..... comparative poverty...

You Australian make $30 one hour - we make $30 one week... you rich!!

Learn about PPP, and get back to us.

Poverty kills, regardless of how the poverty line is measured in local currency terms.

That's why China's average life expectancy has increased from half to equal that of the US, over the last 4 decades.

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« Last Edit: Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:10am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #797 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:50am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 2:12pm:

"Economic and cultural mismagement. "

Is that an admission that economic and cultural social science is a form of magic and not reality?

No, it's a demonstration of you joking about my poor eyesight.

Quote:

Go - tell it to the smart-arses who lie about their 'cultural heritage' to gain possession of things of value to all... tell them that they who lie here have failed in their duty....

The "liars**" are ALL 'cultural heritage' ideologues including yourself who are a barrier to improving the world.

Not 'liars' , but deluded humans who believe in "shared subjective reality" ...FD's delusion.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #798 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:55am

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:03am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:21am:

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:25am:

Why was there a Cultural Revolution in China and Stalinist repression in Russia when they were not at war with anyone yet tens of millions were killed by their very own "common prosperity and consensus ideologues"?
Please explain.

Did you miss it?

Economic and cultural mismagement.

But is that possible in a meritorious, consensus based, common prosperity planned economy and society?

Yes - especially at the beginning, when the vast majority of the population are living in absolute poverty, the administrators of the "consensus" can make mistakes.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #799 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:09am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 2:15pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:46am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:17pm:

My extensive reply to Frank explains WHY I believe rule of law designed to achieve shared prosperity and security is necessary, not "natural individual rights".

ONLY free individuals, coming together freely, can create laws that they all, individually and together, accept and submit to.

Nonsense; Hammurabi created the first written laws (c. 1750BC) codifying "justice", everyone accepted and submitted.

Quote:

THey will be equal before such laws, in defending their individual rights - there aren't any other - and surrendering to the judgemeent of such laws.

More nonsense; indivdual rights aren't the same as universal rights. eg article 23, UNUDHR: "everyone has a right to above-poverty employment".

Who is "everyone" if not individuals??

At least he's come to the point of accepting 'individual rights' - which, sadly for his philosophy, also incorporate all basic human rights....

No, I understand "individual rights" are no more than desires of naturally self-interested, competitive individuals.

The mistake of classical liberalism is to elevate these desires to the status of "natural individual rights".

Obviously naturally competitive and self-interested individuals must submit to rule of law to avoid chaos.

The question is what is the law designed to achieve: common prosperity, or individual riches at the expense of less competitve individuals.

Ie, how is power manifested in the community?

Quote:

and that without a solid (gasps) foundation of both operating together, there is no valid set of rights...

Rights can only exist in law, the goal of law is the question.

Quote:

Now then - about my right to enjoy National Parks held in trust for the entirety of the people by government bodies, and not up for sale to anyone for any price?

We agree.....

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #800 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:12am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:38am:

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:46am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:17pm:

My extensive reply to Frank explains WHY I believe rule of law designed to achieve shared prosperity and security is necessary, not "natural individual rights".

ONLY free individuals, coming together freely, can create laws that they all, individually and together, accept and submit to.

Nonsense; Hammurabi created the first written laws (c. 1750BC) codifying "justice", everyone accepted and submitted.

Quote:

THey will be equal before such laws, in defending their individual rights - there aren't any other - and surrendering to the judgemeent of such laws.

More nonsense; indivdual rights aren't the same as universal rights. eg article 23, UNUDHR: "everyone has a right to above-poverty employment".

Who is "everyone" if not individuals??

Fallacy of composition.

Everyone = the total of individuals.

Individuals.
Operative word. You can't avoid it or talk it away.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #801 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:12am thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:09am: No, I understand "individual rights" are no more than desires of naturally self-interested, competitive individuals. They are the opposite. They reign in people's desires where they would limit the rights of others.
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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 11793 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #802 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:13am thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:09am: I understand "individual rights" are no more than desires of naturally self-interested, competitive individuals. How many people who have been treated immorally, unjustly or unfairly do not believe that they have a right to expect to be treated morally, justly or fairly?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #803 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:26am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:50am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:34am:

So... economic problems in China are causing Chinese to join other escapees from failing economies all around the world.

The relentless US attack on China's economy - banning numerous Chinese companies from international trade, and bullying other countries to do likewise must be working.

All on trumped-up "China threat" lies, 'national security' bs,

Quote:

Do you think that Western-nations' poverty is comparable to Asian/African poverty in severity and degree?

No.

But I know that US/IMF global hegemony is responsible for much of that poverty.

[highlight]The CCP's economy is crumbling[/highlight] - no CCP apparatchik now risks informing Xi Jinping of anything anymore, as Xi has a habit of shooting the messenger - sometimes literally. He now gets his news from other world leaders.

The CCP's last parting 'gift' will be its collapse which will almost certainly trigger a collapse of the Chinese superstate - with tsunami-like effects on the region and the world.

Better for us that the Chinese people rot under a limping CCP.

Mere assertion, based on stinking self-interest.

You are diverting, due to mental incompetence: FD last addressed the topic some time ago:

FD: "is it the word 'natural' (in 'natural individuals rights') you are objecting to?"

TGD: "we ARE 'naturally' competitive and self-interested.
the task for government is to manage those traits, to create common prosperity." ....in line with morality, justice and fairness".

Your ideology stinks of endless war and entrenched poverty - even in the US.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #804 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:28am

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:12am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:38am:

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:46am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:56pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 20^th, 2024 at 12:17pm:

My extensive reply to Frank explains WHY I believe rule of law designed to achieve shared prosperity and security is necessary, not "natural individual rights".

ONLY free individuals, coming together freely, can create laws that they all, individually and together, accept and submit to.

Nonsense; Hammurabi created the first written laws (c. 1750BC) codifying "justice", everyone accepted and submitted.

Quote:

THey will be equal before such laws, in defending their individual rights - there aren't any other - and surrendering to the judgemeent of such laws.

More nonsense; indivdual rights aren't the same as universal rights. eg article 23, UNUDHR: "everyone has a right to above-poverty employment".

Who is "everyone" if not individuals??

Fallacy of composition.

Everyone = the total of individuals.

Individuals.
Operative word. You can't avoid it or talk it away.

?? Blind ideology causing catastrophic loss of IQ?

Individuals exist, and in totality they form the community, aka 'everyone'.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #805 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:31am SSE (Shanghai Composite Index) has actually gone down over the last 5 years. Has any other stock market index in the world? Impressively bad for an economy that is not yet first world.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #806 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:34am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

TGD: "we ARE 'naturally' competitive and self-interested.
the task for government is to manage those traits, to create common prosperity." ....in line with morality, justice and fairness".

We are also all naturally endowed with the instinct towards being treated individually with morality, justice and fairness - even primates have that instinct.

That instinct manifests in all of us from a very early age.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #807 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:53am

freediver wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:12am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:09am:

No, I understand "individual rights" are no more than desires of naturally self-interested, competitive individuals.

They are the opposite. They reign in people's desires where they would limit the rights of others.

..."others" who are equally naturally self-interested and competitive - see the problem?

In fact "individual rights" were thought to be the basis for 'reigning in' the power of the king, but they ended up oppressing the people by powerful self-interested elites, in so-called liberal democracies.

Take 'individual rights' eg to life and liberty.

Desirable, but they don't exist so long as the manifestion of power results in endless war, poverty, and refugeee crises - as in our unhappy world.

All due to poor governance resulting from delusional 'natural individual rights' ideology.

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« Last Edit: Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:05am by thegreatdivide »

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83724 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #808 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:56am thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:28am: ?? Blind ideology causing catastrophic loss of IQ? Individuals exist, and in totality they form the community, aka 'everyone'. If that is the case you are running in the minuses ....
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #809 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:59am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Desirable, but they don't exist so long as the manifestion of power results in endless war, poverty, and refugeee crises - as in our unhappy world.

I don't know what your life is like, but I'm more than happy to live in a 21st-century Western liberal democracy than in any other society - both now and in any other society in history - as are millions who risk their lives to enter one.

Not too many foreigners risking their lives to go live in China or an African state, I'd bet.

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