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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #810 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:04am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:13am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:09am:

I understand "individual rights" are no more than desires of naturally self-interested, competitive individuals.

How many people who have been treated immorally, unjustly or unfairly do not believe that they have a right to expect to be treated morally, justly or fairly?

None. We all DESIRE life and liberty, and all DESIRE to be treated "morally, justly and fairly".

But individuals' natural competitiveness and self-interest renders "fairness" subject to the eye of the individual beholder, hence rule of law is required.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #811 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:12am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:34am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

TGD: "we ARE 'naturally' competitive and self-interested.
the task for government is to manage those traits, to create common prosperity." ....in line with morality, justice and fairness".

We are also all naturally endowed with the instinct towards being treated individually with morality, justice and fairness - even primates have that instinct.

That instinct manifests in all of us from a very early age.

Yes, the child cries "that's not fair" - and the possibility of violence arises, requiring parental intervention....

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« Last Edit: Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:24am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #812 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:13am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:28am:

?? Blind ideology causing catastrophic loss of IQ?

Individuals exist, and in totality they form the community, aka 'everyone'.

If that is the case you are running in the minuses ....

Fail: you didn't address the argument.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #813 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:20am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:04am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:13am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:09am:

I understand "individual rights" are no more than desires of naturally self-interested, competitive individuals.

How many people who have been treated immorally, unjustly or unfairly do not believe that they have a right to expect to be treated morally, justly or fairly?

None. We all DESIRE life and liberty, and all DESIRE to be treated "morally, justly and fairly".

But individuals' natural competitiveness and self-interest renders "fairness" subject to the eye of the individual beholder, hence rule of law is required.

How do those instinctive expectations not translate into individual rights?

The difference in how the outlook between only-children, firstborns and others with near-siblings differ is interesting.

Only-children and firstborns tend to act in more self-interested ways than those with near-siblings with the former often behind in developing a theory of mind than the latter.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #814 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:22am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:34am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

TGD: "we ARE 'naturally' competitive and self-interested.
the task for government is to manage those traits, to create common prosperity." ....in line with morality, justice and fairness".

We are also all naturally endowed with the instinct towards being treated individually with morality, justice and fairness - even primates have that instinct.

That instinct manifests in all of us from a very early age.

Yes, the child cries "that's not fair" ....and the possibility of violence arises...requiring parental intervention....

That's right. We express that instinct almost even before we develop a theory of mind. We instinctively comprehend a right to be treated fairly.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #815 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:23am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Desirable, but they don't exist so long as the manifestion of power results in endless war, poverty, and refugeee crises - as in our unhappy world.

I don't know what your life is like, but I'm more than happy to live in a 21st-century Western liberal democracy than in any other society - both now and in any other society in history - as are millions who risk their lives to enter one.

Ah - the 'comfortable conservative' syndrome, ignoring the scourge of war and poverty affecting millions in our world (currently 100 million refugees).

Build a wall or turn back the boats, that'll fix it.

Quote:

Not too many foreigners risking their lives to go live in China or an African state, I'd bet.

What were you saying about 'morality, justice and fairness', while building walls and coast guards to keep refugees out?

In a world run by powerful financial elites dedicated to serving their own self-interet.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #816 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:25am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:23am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Desirable, but they don't exist so long as the manifestion of power results in endless war, poverty, and refugeee crises - as in our unhappy world.

I don't know what your life is like, but I'm more than happy to live in a 21st-century Western liberal democracy than in any other society - both now and in any other society in history - as are millions who risk their lives to enter one.

Ah - the 'comfortable conservative' syndrome, ignoring the scourge of war and poverty affecting millions in our world (currently 100 million refugees).

How about the scourge of serfdom that has plagued nearly all of those who have ever lived?

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #817 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 11:30am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:13am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:28am:

?? Blind ideology causing catastrophic loss of IQ?

Individuals exist, and in totality they form the community, aka 'everyone'.

If that is the case you are running in the minuses ....

Fail: you didn't address the argument.

What "argument"??

Everyone = every INDIVIDUAL. to
You cannot ignore the elementary fact that 'everyone, 'society', the 'common are composed of individuals. You cannot wish away, Stalin or Mao style, that individual.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #818 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:31pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:22am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:34am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

TGD: "we ARE 'naturally' competitive and self-interested.
the task for government is to manage those traits, to create common prosperity." ....in line with morality, justice and fairness".

We are also all naturally endowed with the instinct towards being treated individually with morality, justice and fairness - even primates have that instinct.

That instinct manifests in all of us from a very early age.

Yes, the child cries "that's not fair" ....and the possibility of violence arises...requiring parental intervention....

That's right. We express that instinct almost even before we develop a theory of mind. We instinctively comprehend a right to be treated fairly.

Did you forget to address "... and the possibility of violence arises ..." ie violence between the individuals who are protesting "fairness"?

Try again.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #819 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:32pm .
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #820 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:41pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:25am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:23am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Desirable, but they don't exist so long as the manifestion of power results in endless war, poverty, and refugeee crises - as in our unhappy world.

I don't know what your life is like, but I'm more than happy to live in a 21st-century Western liberal democracy than in any other society - both now and in any other society in history - as are millions who risk their lives to enter one.

Ah - the 'comfortable conservative' syndrome, ignoring the scourge of war and poverty affecting millions in our world (currently 100 million refugees).

How about the scourge of serfdom that has plagued nearly all of those who have ever lived?

Progress via two steps forward (invention), one step back
(war) .

But beware: US life expectancy has stalled while China's has caught up.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #821 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:53pm

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 11:30am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:13am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:28am:

?? Blind ideology causing catastrophic loss of IQ?

Individuals exist, and in totality they form the community, aka 'everyone'.

If that is the case you are running in the minuses ....

Fail: you didn't address the argument.

What "argument"??

Everyone = every INDIVIDUAL.

Your error (again): 'everyone' ie, all of each one of us = every individual IN TOTAL.

Quote:

You cannot ignore the elementary fact that 'everyone, 'society', the 'common are composed of individuals.

I'm not ignoring it (see above).

Quote:

You cannot wish away, Stalin or Mao style, that individual.

Indeed, but I would like to wish away your fallacy of composition; all is not each.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #822 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:57pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:22am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:34am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

TGD: "we ARE 'naturally' competitive and self-interested.
the task for government is to manage those traits, to create common prosperity." ....in line with morality, justice and fairness".

We are also all naturally endowed with the instinct towards being treated individually with morality, justice and fairness - even primates have that instinct.

That instinct manifests in all of us from a very early age.

Yes, the child cries "that's not fair" ....and the possibility of violence arises...requiring parental intervention....

That's right. We express that instinct almost even before we develop a theory of mind. We instinctively comprehend a right to be treated fairly.

Did you forget to address "... and the possibility of violence arises ..." ie violence between the individuals who are protesting "fairness"?

Try again.

Fair is as fair does, suh! Times change, values change, standards change... it's all a matter of flux, innit? The tide rolls in... the tide rolls out taking the turds with it... rain comes down and washes the scum from the streets, down into the sewers where it belongs, and out into the big ocean... then the fish are eaten at the table and the scum starts again... the endless cycle of scum and fish.... life is but a royal flush ....

Don't forget the Id, Morbius... don't forget the Id ....... are you now suggesting that the did-ums trannies demanding 'rights' are some kind of bad guy?

Wow - you are moving slowly closer to reality..... now then - about that 'death of democracy' - or more correctly 'death of democracy by controlled assisted suicide' .....??

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« Last Edit: Mar 24^th, 2024 at 2:06pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82811 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #823 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:58pm . chop down the voice at state level
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #824 - Mar 24^th, 2024 at 2:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:41pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:25am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 10:23am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Desirable, but they don't exist so long as the manifestion of power results in endless war, poverty, and refugeee crises - as in our unhappy world.

I don't know what your life is like, but I'm more than happy to live in a 21st-century Western liberal democracy than in any other society - both now and in any other society in history - as are millions who risk their lives to enter one.

Ah - the 'comfortable conservative' syndrome, ignoring the scourge of war and poverty affecting millions in our world (currently 100 million refugees).

How about the scourge of serfdom that has plagued nearly all of those who have ever lived?

Progress via two steps forward (invention), one step back
(war) .

But beware: US life expectancy has stalled while China's has caught up.

Official figures can do that...... Aboriginals are not a criminal group as such, you know .... it's just those falsified official figures to put them all in custody where they can be quietly done away with at a lower rate than the prison community and even lower than when in their own 'community of death walking' .......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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