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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #840 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:27pm

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:29pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Desirable, but they don't exist so long as the manifestion of power results in endless war, poverty, and refugeee crises - as in our unhappy world.

I don't know what your life is like, but I'm more than happy to live in a 21st-century Western liberal democracy than in any other society - both now and in any other society in history - as are millions who risk their lives to enter one.

Not too many foreigners risking their lives to go live in China or an African state, I'd bet.

Jean-François Revel (1924–2006) was the man who defined the Communist world as the first society in history condemned to live behind walls in order to stop people getting out.

The path from entrenched inequality and war caused by the 'individual freedom' delusion, toward establishing shared prosperity, is long and painful.

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« Last Edit: Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:36pm by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #841 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:18pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 6:01pm:

The acknowledgement of individual rights and their enshrinement into law was the death knell for serfdom.

Wrong of course; it was the death knell for the Divine Right of Kings.

The death knell of the divine right of kings in the nations of Britain was not sounded by democracy but by the 'glorious revolution'.

The divine right of kings in France was not ended by democracy but by revolution.

The divine right of kings in the German and Austro-Hungarian empires was not ended by democracy but by WW1.

The right of monarchy was not ended in America by democracy but by revolution, as it was in China.

The divine right of kings was always ended by war and conflict.

Democracy was the death knell for serfdom by the recognition that all individuals ls had equal rights.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #842 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:34pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:45pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 7:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:53pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 11:30am:

[quote]You cannot wish away, Stalin or Mao style, that individual.

Indeed, but I would like to wish away your fallacy of composition; all is not each.

Which individuals are left out from the 'all' if 'all' does not include each individual??

Enemies of the State... enemies of the people...... counter-revolutionaries..... rich peasants .... landlords ... capitalist roaders.... a few more.................. deemed to be at discretion of state to whom all are subject......

Thanks for pointing out to Frank that individuals are not everyone in total; eg. enemies of the state, though numbering among individuals IN the state are not everyone in the state.

Quote:

State know best for all!!

Yes - in the state engendering morality, justice and fairness, among naturally competitve, self-interested individuals.

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« Last Edit: Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:43pm by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11785 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #843 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:34pm .
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #844 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:42pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:18pm:

Quote:

So to extend the Chinese observation, necessity is the mother of invention and war is the grandchild?

Endless absurd questions; the former - yes, the latter, no, as noted above.

We in the West are shaped by many ancient traditions, one being the Socratic method or reductio ad absurdum.

It was you who said: 'Progress via two steps forward (invention), one step back (war)'

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #845 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:42pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 6:01pm:

So to extend the Chinese observation, necessity is the mother of invention and war is the grandchild?

"The idea is to oppose one hundred with one, but to confront one with one hundred"....

"How do you personally achieve that?"

"Ha, ha - we use human wave attack.... costly, but principle is sound! Only peasant anyway."

Xi is remarkably war averse, it's incompatible with building a "beautiful, green, socialist China by mid- century.

Even while the US is arming Taiwan to the teeth.

Provided the US - like the UN - doesn't recognize Taiwan as a separate state, Xi can ignore the deluded "individual freedom" fools on Taiwan.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #846 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:51pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:42pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 6:01pm:

So to extend the Chinese observation, necessity is the mother of invention and war is the grandchild?

"The idea is to oppose one hundred with one, but to confront one with one hundred"....

"How do you personally achieve that?"

"Ha, ha - we use human wave attack.... costly, but principle is sound! Only peasant anyway."

Xi is remarkably war averse, it's incompatible with building a "beautiful, green, socialist China by mid-century.

How's that possible? He arrests or murders anyone who comes near him with bad news. He was unaware of the balloon fiasco over the US and was unaware of the white lung breakout in China.

The Chinese demographers, who advised the CCP that the Chinese population overcount was even worse than the 100 million originally estimated, are under house arrest.

No one wants to come near him.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #847 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:11pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:18pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 6:01pm:

The acknowledgement of individual rights and their enshrinement into law was the death knell for serfdom.

Wrong of course; it was the death knell for the Divine Right of Kings.

The death knell of the divine right of kings in the nations of Britain was not sounded by democracy but by the 'glorious revolution'.

Well - Britain retained its kings while its democracy was rudimentary, based on ownership of property.

Whereas the Yanks were among the first to introduce democracy based on 'natural individual rights' - regardless of property ownership - leading to war with Britain.

Quote:

The divine right of kings in France was not ended by democracy but by revolution.

Correct.

Quote:

The divine right of kings in the German and Austro-Hungarian empires was not ended by democracy but by WW1.

Correct

Quote:

The right of monarchy was not ended in America by democracy but by revolution, as it was in China.

Er ...America was a collection of British colonies with a constitution and a 'democracy' based on faulty Enlightenment 'individual rights' ideology, before the War of Independnce.

Quote:

The divine right of kings was always ended by war and conflict.

Not so, see America BEFORE the War of Independence.

Quote:

Democracy was the death knell for serfdom by the recognition that all individuals ls had equal rights.

Wrong again: in Russia and China, the death knell for serfdom was communist revolution - based on recognition of "from each according to his ability, to each according to need".

"Equal rights", maybe?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #848 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:14pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:34pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:45pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 7:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 1:53pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 11:30am:

[quote]You cannot wish away, Stalin or Mao style, that individual.

Indeed, but I would like to wish away your fallacy of composition; all is not each.

Which individuals are left out from the 'all' if 'all' does not include each individual??

Enemies of the State... enemies of the people...... counter-revolutionaries..... rich peasants .... landlords ... capitalist roaders.... a few more.................. deemed to be at discretion of state to whom all are subject......

Thanks for pointing out to Frank that individuals are not everyone in total; eg. enemies of the state, though numbering among individuals IN the state are not everyone in the state.

Quote:

State know best for all!!

Yes - in the state engendering morality, justice and fairness, among naturally competitve, self-interested individuals.

How did you arrive at that absurd position? The greatest enemy of government is democracy - the greatest enemy of democracy is government. Unless you are an 'insider' you are a de facto enemy of the state, especially if you adhere to self-interest and not to state interest.

Get your states right...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #849 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:21pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:42pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:18pm:

Quote:

So to extend the Chinese observation, necessity is the mother of invention and war is the grandchild?

Endless absurd questions; the former - yes, the latter, no, as noted above.

We in the West are shaped by many ancient traditions, one being the Socratic method or reductio ad absurdum.

It was you who said: 'Progress via two steps forward (invention), one step back (war)'

Following one of your many mistakes.

So far mankind has managed to make progress via technological invention, despite the devastation of endless war. (2 steps forward, 1 back)

We must do better, facing today's stressed global ecological boundaries.

'1 step back' cotains the possibility of extinction.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #850 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:22pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:11pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:18pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 6:01pm:

The acknowledgement of individual rights and their enshrinement into law was the death knell for serfdom.

Wrong of course; it was the death knell for the Divine Right of Kings.

The death knell of the divine right of kings in the nations of Britain was not sounded by democracy but by the 'glorious revolution'.

Well - Britain retained its kings while its democracy was rudimentary, based on ownership of property.

Whereas the Yanks were among the first to introduce democracy based on 'natural individual rights' - regardless of property ownership - leading to war with Britain.

Quote:

The divine right of kings in France was not ended by democracy but by revolution.

Correct.

Quote:

The divine right of kings in the German and Austro-Hungarian empires was not ended by democracy but by WW1.

Correct

Quote:

The right of monarchy was not ended in America by democracy but by revolution, as it was in China.

Er ...America was a collection of British colonies with a constitution and a 'democracy' based on faulty Enlightenment 'individual rights' ideology, before the War of Independnce.

Quote:

The divine right of kings was always ended by war and conflict.

Not so, see America BEFORE the War of Independence.

Quote:

Democracy was the death knell for serfdom by the recognition that all individuals ls had equal rights.

Wrong again: in Russia and China, the death knell for serfdom was communist revolution - based on recognition of "from each according to his ability, to each according to need".

"Equal rights", maybe?

No. America did not have a democracy before the War of Independence.

They first founded a republic after the war, not a democracy.

And nevermind that the Founding Fathers first proposed that George Washington be declared King of America.

Karl Marx borrowed the idea of individual rights from the burgeoning democracy in the US of the 19th century and the lack of individual rights in, the Industrial Revolution, 19th-century Britain.

Lenin ended serfdom in name but transformed it in reality into enslavement to the state via a reign of terror, as did Mao - a lifelong admirer of Lenin and Stalin.

So, from telling us that democracy ended the divine right of kings, you have now admitted you were wrong in most and are wrong in those states where you thought communism brought an end to serfdom.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #851 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:27pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:42pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:18pm:

Quote:

So to extend the Chinese observation, necessity is the mother of invention and war is the grandchild?

Endless absurd questions; the former - yes, the latter, no, as noted above.

We in the West are shaped by many ancient traditions, one being the Socratic method or reductio ad absurdum.

It was you who said: 'Progress via two steps forward (invention), one step back (war)'

Following one of your many mistakes.

So far mankind has managed to make progress via technological invention, despite the devastation of endless war. (2 steps forward, 1 back)

We must do better, facing today's stressed global ecological boundaries.

'1 step back' cotains the possibility of extinction.

That's what happens when you don't have the skill to write what you mean - you wrote that invention precedes war - and it can, as it did with the advent of the printing press.

Why must we do better? Others should, that'd be for sure.
We'd have been forgiven for thinking that east asians are not generically capable of doing better, were it not for the likes of Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia...

Just China to go, I guess.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #852 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:31pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:24pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 9:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 11:03am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 10:21am:

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2024 at 9:25am:

Why was there a Cultural Revolution in China and Stalinist repression in Russia when they were not at war with anyone yet tens of millions were killed by their very own "common prosperity and consensus ideologues"?
Please explain.

Did you miss it?

Economic and cultural mismagement.

But is that possible in a meritorious, consensus based, common prosperity planned economy and society?

Yes - especially at the beginning, when the vast majority of the population are living in absolute poverty, the administrators of the "consensus" can make mistakes.

So consensus administrators make 'mistakes' costing tens of millions of deaths by starvation. Who exactly agreed to that 'consesus'?

Did you miss it?

The few administrators, at a time when no consensus existed among the 99% of the uneducated population living in absolute poverty.

Quote:

And who calls the deaths of tens of millions an "administrative mistake", FFS!!!

Me.

If you weren't so stupid I'd call you evil. Banal, evil, stupid.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #853 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:40pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:42pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 6:01pm:

So to extend the Chinese observation, necessity is the mother of invention and war is the grandchild?

"The idea is to oppose one hundred with one, but to confront one with one hundred"....

"How do you personally achieve that?"

"Ha, ha - we use human wave attack.... costly, but principle is sound! Only peasant anyway."

Xi is remarkably war averse, it's incompatible with building a "beautiful, green, socialist China by mid-century.

How's that possible? He arrests or murders anyone who comes near him with bad news.

Wrong of course, see the recent '2 sessions' confernce in Beijing.

(Interestingly a former PBofC official mentioned MMT at that conference - the word is spreading...)

Meanwhile, of course pro-democracy trouble-makers will likely experience the same fate as Assange.....

Quote:

He was unaware of the balloon fiasco over the US and was unaware of the white lung breakout in China.

The Chinese demographers, who advised the CCP that the Chinese population overcount was even worse than the 100 million originally estimated, are under house arrest.

No one wants to come near him.

Xi is not a dictator, he has the backing of the largest political party in the world. Steer clear of corruption, and you will remain free in China.

Meanwhile - about Oz's housing crisis and the broken lives associated with it...

Oh.... I forgot, I'm dealing with your 'comfortable conservative syndome', not to mention your 'individual rights' delusion.

You don't care about how your own countrymen are faring, and prefer to criticize the government of another country.

'Deplorable'.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #854 - Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:44pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 2:40pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2024 at 1:42pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 8:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 24^th, 2024 at 6:01pm:

So to extend the Chinese observation, necessity is the mother of invention and war is the grandchild?

"The idea is to oppose one hundred with one, but to confront one with one hundred"....

"How do you personally achieve that?"

"Ha, ha - we use human wave attack.... costly, but principle is sound! Only peasant anyway."

Xi is remarkably war averse, it's incompatible with building a "beautiful, green, socialist China by mid-century.

How's that possible? He arrests or murders anyone who comes near him with bad news.

Wrong of course, see the recent '2 sessions' confernce in Beijing.

(Interestingly a former PBofC official mentioned MMT at that conference - the word is spreading...)

Meanwhile, of course pro-democracy trouble-makers will likely experience the same fate as Assange.....

Quote:

He was unaware of the balloon fiasco over the US and was unaware of the white lung breakout in China.

The Chinese demographers, who advised the CCP that the Chinese population overcount was even worse than the 100 million originally estimated, are under house arrest.

No one wants to come near him.

Xi is not a dictator, he has the backing of the largest political party in the world. Steer clear of corruption, and you will remain free in China.

Meanwhile - about Oz's housing crisis and the broken lives associated with it...

Oh.... I forgot, I'm dealing with your 'comfortable conservative syndome', not to mention your 'individual rights' delusion.

You don't care about how your own countrymen are faring, and prefer to criticize the government of another country.

'Deplorable'.

It was Biden who told Xi about the balloon and the white-lung epidemic. No one in the CCP dared tell him.

Xi has completely isolated himself from all voices... Except those in his head.

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