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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #930 - Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:03am

Frank wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:00am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

And then they vote. They always vote.

https://www.oed.com/dictionary/vote_v?tl=true

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #931 - Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:26am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

Democracy does not mean political parties or how they select their candidates. That is entirely up to them, as far as I am concerned. It's what happens after that makes democracy.

How do you have democracy without elections?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bias_2012

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Re: foundations
Reply #932 - Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:40am

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Democracy means all the people get a chance to participate in the political talkfests and debates. Elections is a separate issue, they're only counting mechanisms for those who can shout the loudest

Current elections are wankfests, we've only been brainwashed into thinking they're anything else. We get motormouth ideologues who attempt to make Australia into their own image

True democracy is what you see from questionnaire surveys and opinion polls, the results of which should be carried out by elected officials who are impartial, not tied to self interest bullshit, or ideology

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #933 - Mar 30^th, 2024 at 10:10am

Frank wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:00am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

And then they vote. They always vote.

Did you get a vote in who the representatives in the various political parties in your electorate would be?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #934 - Mar 30^th, 2024 at 10:35am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

You're clutching at straws again.

Political parties are entities that grow from the grassroots of political ideals or socio-political issues - including even communism.

How they fare on being elected to a sovereign Parliament depends on whether their electors approve of their candidacy by way of a general election.

In China under the CCP, it is the CCP that is sovereign. The people have no stake or veto in who represents their locale, region, province or nation.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #935 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:15am .
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #936 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:18am

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

Democracy does not mean political parties or how they select their candidates. That is entirely up to them, as far as I am concerned. It's what happens after that makes democracy.

Exactly the argument of the CCP!

Quote:

How do you have democracy without elections?

Ask the CCP.

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freediver

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At my desk.

Re: foundations
Reply #937 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:19am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:18am:

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

Democracy does not mean political parties or how they select their candidates. That is entirely up to them, as far as I am concerned. It's what happens after that makes democracy.

Exactly the argument of the CCP!

Quote:

How do you have democracy without elections?

Ask the CCP.

I am asking you what you mean with the highlighted response.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12113 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #938 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:22am Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:40am: True democracy is what you see from questionnaire surveys and opinion polls, the results of which should be carried out by elected officials who are impartial, not tied to self interest bullshit, or ideology. Interesting post..... But not all opinions are equally valid.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #939 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:30am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 10:35am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

You're clutching at straws again.

Political parties are entities that grow from the grassroots of political ideals or socio-political issues - including even communism.

I already know that, the question is : is democracy the "worst form of government" (as correctly claimed by Churchill - though with an addendum because he like you lacked the vision to conceive anything better).

Quote:

How they fare on being elected to a sovereign Parliament depends on whether their electors approve of their candidacy by way of a general election.

See bias' recent post, #932 (....ouch....).

Quote:

In China under the CCP, it is the CCP that is sovereign.

The CCP is the government; sovereignty of the Chinese nation is protected by the government, same as in Oz.

Quote:

The people have no stake or veto in who represents their locale, region, province or nation

See bias's recent post. Ouch.

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« Last Edit: Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:38am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #940 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:31am

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:19am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:18am:

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

Democracy does not mean political parties or how they select their candidates. That is entirely up to them, as far as I am concerned. It's what happens after that makes democracy.

Exactly the argument of the CCP!

Quote:

How do you have democracy without elections?

Ask the CCP.

I am asking you what you mean with the highlighted response.

See my recent replies to Frank, #933.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #941 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 12:33pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 10:10am:

Frank wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:00am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

And then they vote. They always vote.

Did you get a vote in who the representatives in the various political parties in your electorate would be?

If I were a party member, yes.

After the part selects its candidate - by voting - the electorate, ie every eligible member of the policy, can vote for their preferred candidate in their electorate.
Each elected member then votes in the parliamentary party room on various issues. They sometimes even vote to replace their own leaders within the parliamentary party.

Every 3-4 years the process is repeated. There is no democracy - rule by the people - without the people having a say in who rules them and how.

In China, North Korea, Saudi, Syria, Russia etc the people have no say in who rules them and how.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #942 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 12:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:18am:

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:26am:

[quote]How do you have democracy without elections?

Ask the CCP.

You must be playing the idiot deliberately, silly parrot. The CCP and China have no Democratic bone in their body. They are communist party dictatorships.
Not even you are as stupid as to really believe they are democracies.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #943 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 12:39pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 11:30am:

Quote:

In China under the CCP, it is the CCP that is sovereign.

The CCP is the government; sovereignty of the Chinese nation is protected by the government, same as in Oz.

The CCP claims sovereignty, not merely being the government.

It is the reason the CCP claims other political parties cannot exist - their existence alone would be directly challenging the CCP's sovereign status.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #944 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 3:07pm

Frank wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 12:33pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 10:10am:

Frank wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 9:00am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 30^th, 2024 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 2:00pm:

So when the CCP says consensus, they mean consensus among the people who agree with them, while the punishment for disagreeing with them is a bullet to the back of the head?

No. They are referring to grass roots democracy, moving up to the national level without elections. - by consensus.

How do you have democracy without elections?

Have a look how political parties select their candidates in Oz. Much horse trading in grassroots, local-branch democracy.

And then they vote. They always vote.

Did you get a vote in who the representatives in the various political parties in your electorate would be?

If I were a party member, yes.

Yeh..so 0.1% of the population decide who will actually represent you in your electorate - IF your party is elected.

See bias's #932.

Quote:

Every 3-4 years the process is repeated. There is no democracy - rule by the people - without the people having a say in who rules them and how.

Sounds like "the worst form of government"; rule by clowns selected by the 0.1% of the population who are party members.

Quote:

In China, North Korea, Saudi, Syria, Russia etc the people have no say in who rules them and how.

..seeking an alternative to "the worst form of government"..

Let's see if the US can repair a bridge in a year, without a political fight over funding.... while China continues to build infrastructure at a faster rate than blind leading the blind democracies torn apart by self-interest.

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