Australian Politics Forum - Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream

lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17684 Gender:	Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream Reply #285 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 7:21pm freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 6:56pm: Looks to me like Nuclear is the most expensive option. Yeah. $146 and $219 are so much cheaper.
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freediver

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #286 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 7:27pm

The source of the variation is obvious. For solar for example it would include installations in the tropics as well as northern Europe. It would span scales from small retail rooftop solar to commercial scale installations. Plenty of Australia is in the tropics and obviously it makes sense to compare a nuclear plant with a large commercial solar installation, not a retail rooftop installation.

No-one has backyard nuclear plants.

Where did you copy the numbers from?

Who do you think is offering to store radioactive waste for free? Do you think the coalition's plan involves dumping nuclear waste in the nearest creek?

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« Last Edit: Mar 18^th, 2024 at 7:33pm by freediver »

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17684 Gender:	Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream Reply #287 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 7:37pm freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 7:27pm: Where did you copy the numbers from? From your very own choice - wikipedia. It must suck to be you. BTW - with a large land mass and relatively few people, transmission lines for the remote renewables will be hugely expensive per head of population.
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freediver

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #288 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 9:50pm

lee wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 7:37pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 7:27pm:

Where did you copy the numbers from?

From your very own choice - wikipedia. It must suck to be you. Wink

BTW - with a large land mass and relatively few people, transmission lines for the remote renewables will be hugely expensive per head of population.

Why did you include these two:

Nuclear - $81-82 / MWh
Offshore wind - $36-146 / MWh

But not this one?

Wind power $27–75

Who do you think is offering to store radioactive waste for free? Do you think the coalition's plan involves dumping nuclear waste in the nearest creek?

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lee

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #289 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 12:20pm

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 9:50pm:

But not this one?

Wind power $27–75

Because I used Distributed Generation (wind) because as I said wind turbines cannot be co-located. Have a look at the definition it is highlighted, pass the cursor over it. Note: It doesn't say wind turbines cannot be co-located, so if you have a site that disagrees please provide it. Roll Eyes

Perhaps a single wind turbine would work for you. Wink

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #290 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 12:30pm

lee wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 12:20pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 9:50pm:

But not this one?

Wind power $27–75

Because I used Distributed Generation (wind) because as I said wind turbines cannot be co-located. Have a look at the definition it is highlighted, pass the cursor over it. Note: It doesn't say wind turbines cannot be co-located, so if you have a site that disagrees please provide it. Roll Eyes

Perhaps a single wind turbine would work for you. Wink

That is what the electricity actually costs using that technology. Even the upper limit of the range is less than nuclear.

Distributed refers to smaller, one-off turbines. Obviously a smaller one is going to cost more due to economies of scale. Same with a nuclear power station, except no-one would be silly enough to do that because of the cost, unless it was in a submarine or something else that justified the cost.

Do you think the coalition also bases their energy policy on a 2 minute misunderstanding of the wikipedia page on electricity prices?

Who do you think is offering to store radioactive waste for free? Do you think the coalition's plan involves dumping nuclear waste in the nearest creek?

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« Last Edit: Mar 19^th, 2024 at 12:36pm by freediver »

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lee

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #291 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 2:27pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

That is what the electricity actually costs using that technology.

Well you can add to cost of the distribution to the the cost of the turbines. Wink

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

Distributed refers to smaller, one-off turbines.

Nope.

"Distributed generation, also distributed energy, on-site generation (OSG),[1] or district/decentralized energy, is electrical generation and storage performed by a variety of small, grid-connected or distribution system-connected devices referred to as distributed energy resources (DER).[2] "

No single mentioned there.

More

"Conventional power stations, such as coal-fired, gas, and nuclear powered plants, as well as hydroelectric dams and large-scale solar power stations, are centralized and often require electric energy to be transmitted over long distances. By contrast, DER systems are decentralized, modular, and more flexible technologies that are located close to the load they serve, albeit having capacities of only 10 megawatts (MW) or less. These systems can comprise multiple generation and storage components; in this instance, they are referred to as hybrid power systems.[3]"

All wind technology is modular. They cover a large area. Therefore they are DECENTRALIZED. Roll Eyes

If it is only a single one off then it will only be used locally. Therefore it will not connect to the grid.

And because it is a microgrid it will not be in competition with nuclear. Roll Eyes

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #292 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 3:26pm

Lee are you saying you left out the $27–75 price for wind power because you somehow tricked yourself into believing it does not exist?

Who do you think is offering to store radioactive waste for free? Do you think the coalition's plan involves dumping nuclear waste in the nearest creek?

lee wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 2:27pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

That is what the electricity actually costs using that technology.

Well you can add to cost of the distribution to the the cost of the turbines. Wink

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 12:30pm:

Distributed refers to smaller, one-off turbines.

Nope.

"Distributed generation, also distributed energy, on-site generation (OSG),[1] or district/decentralized energy, is electrical generation and storage performed by a variety of small, grid-connected or distribution system-connected devices referred to as distributed energy resources (DER).[2] "

No single mentioned there.

More

"Conventional power stations, such as coal-fired, gas, and nuclear powered plants, as well as hydroelectric dams and large-scale solar power stations, are centralized and often require electric energy to be transmitted over long distances. By contrast, DER systems are decentralized, modular, and more flexible technologies that are located close to the load they serve, albeit having capacities of only 10 megawatts (MW) or less. These systems can comprise multiple generation and storage components; in this instance, they are referred to as hybrid power systems.[3]"

All wind technology is modular. They cover a large area. Therefore they are DECENTRALIZED. Roll Eyes

If it is only a single one off then it will only be used locally. Therefore it will not connect to the grid.

And because it is a microgrid it will not be in competition with nuclear. Roll Eyes

Do you think the coalition has as much trouble understanding this as you do?

Quote:

All wind technology is modular.

All energy technology is modular. Even our large power stations often have several identical turbines side by side. Some with our gas fired power stations.

Quote:

They cover a large area. Therefore they are DECENTRALIZED. Roll Eyes

That is not what decentralised means. If a power station was really spread out that would not make it decentralised either.

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« Last Edit: Mar 19^th, 2024 at 3:32pm by freediver »

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lee

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #293 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 3:51pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 3:26pm:

Lee are you saying you left out the $27–75 price for wind power because you somehow tricked yourself into believing it does not exist?

Wow. How to deliberately confuse the issue. No READ it and understand. Roll Eyes

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 3:26pm:

All energy technology is modular. Even our large power stations often have several identical turbines side by side. Some with our gas fired power stations.

And they are co-located. Something wind, as pointed out, cannot do.

" Conventional power stations, such as coal-fired, gas, and nuclear powered plants, as well as hydroelectric dams and large-scale solar power stations, are centralized"

Roll Eyes

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 3:26pm:

f a power station was really spread out that would not make it decentralised either.

Argue with wiki. It is your reference. Roll Eyes

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Belgarion

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #294 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 4:50pm

I notice that none of the information I have posted previously about nuclear power, its costs, safety record and reliability have been challenged by the anti-nukers....because they cannot. The facts speak for themselves.

But here is yet another set of facts, these ones are about cost:

Nuclear power is cost-competitive with other forms of electricity generation, except where there is direct access to low-cost fossil fuels.

Fuel costs for nuclear plants are a minor proportion of total generating costs, though capital costs are greater than those for coal-fired plants and much greater than those for gas-fired plants.

System costs for nuclear power (as well as coal and gas-fired generation) are very much lower than for intermittent renewables.

Providing incentives for long-term, high-capital investment in deregulated markets driven by short-term price signals presents a challenge in securing a diversified and reliable electricity supply system.

In assessing the economics of nuclear power, decommissioning and waste disposal costs are fully taken into account.

Nuclear power plant construction is typical of large infrastructure projects around the world, whose costs and delivery challenges tend to be underestimated.

https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/economic-aspects/economics-of-...

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #295 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 5:28pm

lee wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 3:51pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 3:26pm:

Lee are you saying you left out the $27–75 price for wind power because you somehow tricked yourself into believing it does not exist?

Wow. How to deliberately confuse the issue. No READ it and understand. Roll Eyes

I cannot figure out why you left it out, other than because you think it is some kind of lie, which involves a whole lot of arm waving on your part. Are you saying it is not possible to get wind power for the given price? Do you think the coalition is also backing nuclear because they get as confused as you do by wikipedia articles?

Who do you think is offering to store radioactive waste for free? Do you think the coalition's plan involves dumping nuclear waste in the nearest creek?

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lee

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #296 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 5:55pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 5:28pm:

I cannot figure out why you left it out, other than because you think it is some kind of lie, which involves a whole lot of arm waving on your part

You poor dear. Wink

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 5:28pm:

Are you saying it is not possible to get wind power for the given price?

Have you seen the stories on Siemens and Oersted? They seem to be having a problem. Needing higher subsidies.

"Siemens Energy's shares tumble as wind turbine troubles deepen"

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/siemens-energy-ceo-setback-turbine-troub...

"Ørsted shares fall 25% after it reveals troubles in US business"

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/30/orsted-shares-fall-troubles-...

Oersted paying cancellation fees.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2024 at 5:28pm:

Do you think the coalition is also backing nuclear because they get as confused as you do by wikipedia articles?

Not as confused as you, obviously. Wink

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #297 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 5:57pm

Are you saying it is not possible to get wind power for the given price? Is that why you left it off your comparison? Do you think the coalition is as duplicitous as you when it comes to electricity costs?

Who do you think is offering to store radioactive waste for free? Do you think the coalition's plan involves dumping nuclear waste in the nearest creek?

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17684 Gender:	Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream Reply #298 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 6:29pm I am sorry. I have wasted enough time with a demented chimp. Bye
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freediver

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Re: Coalition's 10 Year Nuclear Claim Is A Dream
Reply #299 - Mar 19^th, 2024 at 6:38pm

Were you simply trying to deceive everyone when you left the most common, and cheapest price for wind power out of your comparison with nuclear? Do you think the coalition is as duplicitous as you when it comes to electricity costs, because they are appealing to the "easily confused" demographic?

Why do you insist it is free to store radioactive waste, and up to others to prove otherwise? Who do you think is offering to store radioactive waste for free? Do you think the coalition's plan involves dumping nuclear waste in the nearest creek?

Why do you think we should go with nuclear, despite the dangers and unsolved problems with the waste, and our lack of experience with it, when it is already one of the most expensive options, and the others are all getting cheaper at such a rate that nuclear is close to being obsolete?

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