Australian Politics Forum - Looking back on Mungo Man

MeisterEckhart

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #15 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 5:55pm

Various human species have walked across every part of the world since their migration out of Africa from 100000+ years ago.

The only places to be inhabited relatively recently were far-flung oceanic islands and New Zealand - the latter only being inhabited by humans less than 1000 years ago.

The remains of Denisovans found in East Asia do not make them Russian, Chinese or Philippinos.

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Setanta

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #16 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:12pm

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 4:45pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 3:39pm:

Looking back on Mungo Man – human remains millennia older than the pyramids – 50 years on - his discovery changed everything we knew about Indigenous Australians - for the better.

"These people were highly sophisticated 40,000 years ago, nobody had ever thought of Indigenous Australia in those terms," he says.

"There's no ochre within well over 100 kilometres … that ochre had to be prepared in advance, brought in, traded maybe.

"Quite a detailed ritual involved in that exercise, bringing the stuff in and preparing it and anointing the body.

"It's the sort of thing that goes on in a requiem in any cathedral.

Cheesy

So sophisticated, all those Aboriginal cathedrals!

Apparently, elephants bury their dedead calves. Are they as sophisticated as Aborigines and cathedral builders?

I find the Bbwianesque talking up of evidently primitive people laughable. The only interesting thing about Aborigines is how amazingly primitive and totally frozen in pre-history they were.

Roman soldiers could march 50 miles in a day with full kit. Nipping off for a 60 mile walk with a stick or two and a dilly bag would have been nothing. "Back in a coupla days, seeya then!"

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aquascoot

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #17 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:20pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 5:25pm:

Mungo Man must be understood in the context of all discovered ancient human peoples' remains, artefacts and art.

There is no necessary direct link between the ancient aboriginal peoples' remains discovered in any region and those peoples living there today.

Aboriginal cave artists in Lascaux were not French.

good point

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aquascoot

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #18 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:20pm

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 4:45pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 3:39pm:

Looking back on Mungo Man – human remains millennia older than the pyramids – 50 years on - his discovery changed everything we knew about Indigenous Australians - for the better.

"These people were highly sophisticated 40,000 years ago, nobody had ever thought of Indigenous Australia in those terms," he says.

"There's no ochre within well over 100 kilometres … that ochre had to be prepared in advance, brought in, traded maybe.

"Quite a detailed ritual involved in that exercise, bringing the stuff in and preparing it and anointing the body.

"It's the sort of thing that goes on in a requiem in any cathedral.

Cheesy

So sophisticated, all those Aboriginal cathedrals!

Apparently, elephants bury their dedead calves. Are they as sophisticated as Aborigines and cathedral builders?

I find the Bbwianesque talking up of evidently primitive people laughable. The only interesting thing about Aborigines is how amazingly primitive and totally frozen in pre-history they were.

highly sophisticated is a bit of a stretch

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10397 armidale Gender:	Re: Looking back on Mungo Man Reply #19 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:27pm A 22 hour march was posible under Julius Caesar but it wrecked his men. They were unable to breed successfully on arrival.
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Jasin

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #20 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:29pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 5:38pm:

Jasin wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 5:29pm:

So really, they haven't been 'allowed' to prove the worth of Mungo Man, so how can they prove he was aborigine - like them?

He was aboriginal in the sense of the word, but was he an ancestor of modern Australian indigenous peoples? Probably not.

It might be more probable that he was related to the ancient ancestors of the Andaman Islands peoples - closer in morphology to ancient African peoples and unrelated to ancient subcontinental peoples, and with no Denisovan ancestry.

Agree to a point. I do reckon, upon just associations, that Mungo Man came from the early Haplogroup that first spread out of the Rift Valley or thereabouts - to incorporate the Andaman Islanders, indigi Tibetans, Ainu (Jommu), and even the early Africans that you see in the San Bushmen most distinctly. The earliest wave of Tasmanian Aborigines would also have been from this group - as too some of the indigo Indonesians akin to Melanesian. Denisovians and Neanderthal admixture would have been in there - as is seen in its highest concentration with the Melanesians.

Modern Negroids, Caucasoids and Mongoloids would have sprouted from this Haplogroup as they are relatively 'very young' genetically.

There really needs to be a label for these early Sapiens that spread out a bit as a first wave haplogroup, while Neanderthal, Denisovian and other Hominids were still prevalent as far as Indonesia in the world.

The Primordial Slime?
The Ancients?
The Primitives?
The 1st Agers?
Regardless, a lot of them still exist viably in the world today.
...how about the Grandparents?

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Jasin

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #21 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:37pm

aquascoot wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:20pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 4:45pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 3:39pm:

Looking back on Mungo Man – human remains millennia older than the pyramids – 50 years on - his discovery changed everything we knew about Indigenous Australians - for the better.

"These people were highly sophisticated 40,000 years ago, nobody had ever thought of Indigenous Australia in those terms," he says.

"There's no ochre within well over 100 kilometres … that ochre had to be prepared in advance, brought in, traded maybe.

"Quite a detailed ritual involved in that exercise, bringing the stuff in and preparing it and anointing the body.

"It's the sort of thing that goes on in a requiem in any cathedral.

Cheesy

So sophisticated, all those Aboriginal cathedrals!

Apparently, elephants bury their dedead calves. Are they as sophisticated as Aborigines and cathedral builders?

I find the Bbwianesque talking up of evidently primitive people laughable. The only interesting thing about Aborigines is how amazingly primitive and totally frozen in pre-history they were.

highly sophisticated is a bit of a stretch

Well they were probably the most 'advanced' culturally for the world at the time from 15,000 years to 100,000 years ago.
Maybe Australia (Sahul) was the 'go to place' for everyone wanting to get out of north-east Africa?
Afterall - the Seven Sisters Story, being the oldest to date beyond the spatterings of 'fart' stories to conceive 'gods' and 'spirits', was popular enough to travel as far as Greece to remain as the oldest story in Europe.

So maybe Australia was the 'cultural' birthplace of Sapiens, having travelled so far in the learning of leaving the cradle, but not 'racially'?
Then, like Atlantis - it sunk beneath the waves and was lost to the world for tens of thousands of years. There, they stagnated for lack of stimulus (change) from the outside.
But hey, it took a hell of a very long time for something to spark 'change' in another part of the world with the Middle-East being the catalyst - but only in the last 10,000 years at the very least.

Calling them 'Primitive' is the catch-cry of the Johnny-come-lately civilisations.

Civilisation: When Humans prey upon Humans.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Setanta Gold Member Offline \/ Peace man! Posts: 16272 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: Looking back on Mungo Man Reply #22 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:59pm Jasin wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 6:37pm: Civilisation: When Humans prey upon Humans. They have preyed upon each other long before civilisation came about. Even chimps prey upon each other from differing tribes. The fossilised bones of a group of murdered humans dating back 10,000 years have been found in Kenya.
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Frank

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #23 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:02pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 5:25pm:

Mungo Man must be understood in the context of all discovered ancient human peoples' remains, artefacts and art.

There is no necessary direct link between the ancient aboriginal peoples' remains discovered in any region and those peoples living there today.

Aboriginal cave artists in Lascaux were not French.

No. The people in what is now France - and much of thd rest of th ed world - changed and developed.
But aborigines in 1787 WERE exactly as they were 40,000 years ago. That is interesting. That is bad conservatism on steroids. A total rejection an dc resistance to ANY change. Fascinating and not a little, well, creepy weird.

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Setanta

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #24 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:09pm

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:02pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 5:25pm:

Mungo Man must be understood in the context of all discovered ancient human peoples' remains, artefacts and art.

There is no necessary direct link between the ancient aboriginal peoples' remains discovered in any region and those peoples living there today.

Aboriginal cave artists in Lascaux were not French.

No. The people in what is now France - and much of thd rest of th ed world - changed and developed.
But aborigines in 1787 WERE exactly as they were 40,000 years ago. That is interesting. That is bad conservatism on steroids. A total rejection an dc resistance to ANY change. Fascinating and not a little, well, creepy weird.

The European HG DNA says they were tinted with blue eyes. Multiple samples from all across Europe. That was before the Anatolian farmers brought brown eyes and lighter skin from about 6000bce and the Yamnaya bronze age event(s).

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #25 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:16pm

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:02pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 5:25pm:

Mungo Man must be understood in the context of all discovered ancient human peoples' remains, artefacts and art.

There is no necessary direct link between the ancient aboriginal peoples' remains discovered in any region and those peoples living there today.

Aboriginal cave artists in Lascaux were not French.

No. The people in what is now France - and much of thd rest of th ed world - changed and developed.
But aborigines in 1787 WERE exactly as they were 40,000 years ago. That is interesting. That is bad conservatism on steroids. A total rejection an dc resistance to ANY change. Fascinating and not a little, well, creepy weird.

Concerning Mungo Man and his relationship to modern-day Aboriginal peoples is whether the peoples who were in Australia at the time of British settlement were genetically the same as peoples who were apparently in Australia 40000+ years before.

Was Mungo Man an ancestor to modern-day Aboriginal peoples or was he as genetically distinct from them as are Europeans? Probably the latter.

Regarding their primitive state, Aboriginal peoples in Australia are little different in terms of technological non-advancement as, say, Melanesians of Papua New Guinea, Kalahari Bushmen of Africa and Amazonians of South America.

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Frank

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #26 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:27pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:16pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:02pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 5:25pm:

Mungo Man must be understood in the context of all discovered ancient human peoples' remains, artefacts and art.

There is no necessary direct link between the ancient aboriginal peoples' remains discovered in any region and those peoples living there today.

Aboriginal cave artists in Lascaux were not French.

No. The people in what is now France - and much of thd rest of th ed world - changed and developed.
But aborigines in 1787 WERE exactly as they were 40,000 years ago. That is interesting. That is bad conservatism on steroids. A total rejection an dc resistance to ANY change. Fascinating and not a little, well, creepy weird.

Was Mungo Man an ancestor to modern-day Aboriginal peoples or was he as genetically distinct from them as are Europeans? Probably the latter.

Explain that 'probably'.

The rest of your post amounts to nothing. There are other primitive people, sure. Few of them make such a virtue of it as Aborigines try to, both to talk it down and up at the same time. Obviously tutored by white ideologues.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11222 Gender:	Re: Looking back on Mungo Man Reply #27 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:33pm Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:27pm: There are other primitive people, sure. Few of them make such a virtue of it as Aborigines try to, both to talk it down and up at the same time. Obviously tutored by white ideologues. Don't they? And you know that, because?
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Frank

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #28 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:39pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:33pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:27pm:

There are other primitive people, sure. Few of them make such a virtue of it as Aborigines try to, both to talk it down and up at the same time. Obviously tutored by white ideologues.

Don't they? And you know that, because?

Don't they what?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Looking back on Mungo Man
Reply #29 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:42pm

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:33pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2024 at 7:27pm:

There are other primitive people, sure. Few of them make such a virtue of it as Aborigines try to, both to talk it down and up at the same time. Obviously tutored by white ideologues.

Don't they? And you know that, because?

Don't they what?

Make a virtue of their aboriginality.

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