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New theory on God could spark new religion (Read 6648 times)
mothra
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #60 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 1:25am
 
Polyphemus wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 12:39am:
As I said earlier, panpsychism is nothing new. It gets a wardrobe adjustment from to to time.

You, and any of us, might also find comfort in or an appreciation for Dualism, Idealism, Monads, the Simulation  theory or Physicalism etc.


They ALL have their pitfalls. Panpsychism bleeds on the combination problem.

But it seems to me that the best tool we have for finding out about the universe or deciding what true about it is the scientific method. It wasn't Panpsychism that gave us enough understanding of the universe for the computers we're using to have this conversation.




Why are you holding panpsychism up to of the modality that created computer science? One may just as easily and correctly say that the exploration of dark matter has nothing to do with me buying incense on eBay.

Strawman.

The interesting point is that you are relegating Goff's work to a concept you've already come across. Not particularly "scientific" of you. Science is about asking questions and setting about trying to answer them. Agreed? Perhaps there is a reason "panpsychism" doesn't go away? Perhaps that is explained in Goff's expanding of it?

The "combination problem". Please, by all means expand. But from what you've said, it's no refutation. Simply another question.

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Super Nova
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #61 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 1:34am
 
Great topic mothra.  Smiley
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Jasin
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #62 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 1:39am
 
Yes. Great Topic Mothra.
And good contributions from all.
I've enjoyed it.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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mothra
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #63 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 1:41am
 
Cheers. It really interested me so i thought i might not be alone ... Smiley
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Polyphemus
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #64 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 2:01am
 
mothra wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 1:25am:
Polyphemus wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 12:39am:
As I said earlier, panpsychism is nothing new. It gets a wardrobe adjustment from to to time.

You, and any of us, might also find comfort in or an appreciation for Dualism, Idealism, Monads, the Simulation  theory or Physicalism etc.


They ALL have their pitfalls. Panpsychism bleeds on the combination problem.

But it seems to me that the best tool we have for finding out about the universe or deciding what true about it is the scientific method. It wasn't Panpsychism that gave us enough understanding of the universe for the computers we're using to have this conversation.




Why are you holding panpsychism up to of the modality that created computer science? One may just as easily and correctly say that the exploration of dark matter has nothing to do with me buying incense on eBay.

Strawman.

The interesting point is that you are relegating Goff's work to a concept you've already come across. Not particularly "scientific" of you. Science is about asking questions and setting about trying to answer them. Agreed? Perhaps there is a reason "panpsychism" doesn't go away? Perhaps that is explained in Goff's expanding of it?

The "combination problem". Please, by all means expand. But from what you've said, it's no refutation. Simply another question.



Ok, it seems that you think Panpsychism is resolving something about the universe in contrast to science. It hasn't. You like it, great but that isn't enough, is it?

And you've dodged my earlier questions. For example you didn't distinguish between "scientific verification and the verification principle of the positivists. You seem to have confused Super Nova's appeal to scientific processes with logical positivism. That's why asked you further explanation but none was really given. You then said that scientific verification was reproducibility, even though it's more...

Anyway, with respect to the combination problem, I addressed this briefly in my initial posts. But let me repeat in other words here.

In panpsychism, the combination problem refers to the challenge of understanding how individual elements of consciousness, which according to panpsychism are present in all things, combine to form unified, complex conscious experiences such as those found in humans and other higher animals. This problem arises because panpsychism posits that consciousness is fundamental and ubiquitous, existing even in the smallest elements of matter, yet it's not immediately clear how these individual consciousnesses combine to create the rich and integrated experiences that we perceive.

For instance, if we accept that even elementary particles possess some form of consciousness according to panpsychism, how do these individual consciousnesses aggregate and interact to produce the unified, coherent experiences that we observe in organisms like humans? This question remains a significant challenge for panpsychist theories of consciousness.

I don't know, Mothra, you put up Panpsychism as some kind of challenge to science- well, that's how the argument between you and Super Nova seemed to go. But it really isn't.

At the end of the day, it's the scientific method that separates the wheat from the chaff. It is the best way we have to understand this universe. And it has proven itself over and over again.

In as far as you see Panpsychism as giving us an understanding of the universe, then my example was no straw man.

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MeisterEckhart
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #65 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 8:37am
 
To seek to know what the universe is in itself is likely futile.

If the universe is the set of all that is, including itself - indivisible, then the 'I' that is you cannot be separated from it such that it can be known.

There was a young man who said, 'Though,
It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the I that knows me,
When I know that I know that I know'.

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it_is_the_light
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #66 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 8:52am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 8:37am:
To seek to know what the universe is in itself is likely futile.

If the universe is the set of all that is, including itself - indivisible, then the 'I' that is you cannot be separated from it such that it can be known.

There was a young man who said, 'Though,
It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the I that knows me,
When I know that I know that I know'.



Fortunately,  human destiny is not

Constricted by mediocre minds  Smiley
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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : )  ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯
it_is_the_light it_is_the_light Christ+Light Christ+Light  
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #67 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 8:56am
 
it_is_the_light wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 8:52am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 8:37am:
To seek to know what the universe is in itself is likely futile.

If the universe is the set of all that is, including itself - indivisible, then the 'I' that is you cannot be separated from it such that it can be known.

There was a young man who said, 'Though,
It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the I that knows me,
When I know that I know that I know'.



Fortunately,  human destiny is not

Constricted by mediocre minds  Smiley

How do you transcend 'the greatest known' to 'all that is', beyond which there is nothing to know?
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Jovial Monk
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #68 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 9:34am
 
I am too materialistic to accept this.

However—how the hell did the Universe come to be?

The Big Bang? The explosion of the monobloc—where/how/why did the monobloc come from? Why was it there? How long was it there if it was liable to explode?

The steady state? A hypothesis now discredited but we don’t really have enough knowledge to say yes or no.

So why is the Universe here?

If it has a consciousness where does it reside? How can parts of its “brain” communicate?
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #69 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 9:38am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 8:37am:
To seek to know what the universe is in itself is likely futile.

If the universe is the set of all that is, including itself - indivisible, then the 'I' that is you cannot be separated from it such that it can be known.

There was a young man who said, 'Though,
It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the I that knows me,
When I know that I know that I know'.



I like that
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it_is_the_light
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #70 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 9:40am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 9:34am:
I am too materialistic to accept this.

However—how the hell did the Universe come to be?

The Big Bang? The explosion of the monobloc—where/how/why did the monobloc come from? Why was it there? How long was it there if it was liable to explode?

The steady state? A hypothesis now discredited but we don’t really have enough knowledge to say yes or no.

So why is the Universe here?

If it has a consciousness where does it reside? How can parts of its “brain” communicate?



In the beginning ( time )

There was the heavens ( space )

And the Earth ( matter )

More spoon feeding for them and those that placed

their belief system in a falsehood.. this

happened millennia before the thought

entertained your feeble brain to steal from

a simple minded cabbie , you villain..

such a shonky monk thou art



Don't mind the below , just lightning walking

across matter 👇

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : )  ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯
it_is_the_light it_is_the_light Christ+Light Christ+Light  
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Frank
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #71 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 9:52am
 
mothra wrote on Apr 6th, 2024 at 8:53pm:
You have no idea what the universe is. Nobody does. Simply saying "it is everything" because that's how the dictionary defined it is worthy of a year 5 paper on the solar system.

Nobody knows.

We are only guessing.

To think anything else is hubris.


Not at all.
There are two things here which you seem to treat as if they were one and the same.
1. the universe,ie everything, the totality of all things
2. our knowledge of 1.

An analogy or illustration would be 1. Mind and 2. Our knowledge of the mind.
We know what we mean by mind even if we do not understand all its aspects and workings.

This may be a useful analogy for the topic as well. If the universe is conscious/self-conscious then it has some sort of mind since cannot imagine consciousness without some sort of a mind since in our experience the two go together.  It is no accident that our god-concepts invariably veer towards the anthropomorphic.
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #72 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 10:30am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 7th, 2024 at 9:34am:
I am too materialistic to accept this.

However—how the hell did the Universe come to be?

The Big Bang? The explosion of the monobloc—where/how/why did the monobloc come from? Why was it there? How long was it there if it was liable to explode?

The steady state? A hypothesis now discredited but we don’t really have enough knowledge to say yes or no.

So why is the Universe here?

If it has a consciousness where does it reside? How can parts of its “brain” communicate?


Really good comments Jovial.
I have started a new thread based on this, hope that is ok.
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Frank
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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #73 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 10:37am
 
Quote:
Religion

GOFF, however, prefers to think that “perhaps we can in some small way contribute” to this cosmic purpose “by trying to make the world as best as we can”.

And it’s here that we get into the territory of religion. If the notion of a universe with purpose makes Goff want to be a good person, isn’t this close to what we mean by “faith”?

Cosmopsychism could change how we think about spirituality, Goff feels.

Our lives can still have meaning without a creator god or a conscious universe or any belief at all, he thinks, “but if there is cosmic purpose then there’s potential for a more meaningful form of existence”.

It’s obvious how the idea of a conscious universe – the universe as “god” – could easily fit with modern environmentalism.

If we think about the universe as having a consciousness, Goff says, then perhaps we might start treating the things in the universe with a little more respect. “It adds a whole extra moral dimension,” he adds.

Goff knows that his theories come at a time when the Western world is experiencing a “meaning crisis”. In a post-god, secular world, what really gives purpose to our lives?

As Goff began to embrace Cosmopsychism, he found it added meaning to his own life. And what was that meaning? “To live in hope that the good you do contributes to some greater purpose.”

Indeed, some Christian thinkers are concerned that people are now beginning to ponder the notion of the universe as “god”. It presents a clear challenge to organised religion.

Might there come a time when people actually “worship” the universe? “When we hear the word ‘worship’,” says Goff, “many think of getting on your knees in supplication to some anthropomorphic deity.

However, in progressive religions, such as Quakers, “worship” is used to mean practices to invoke contemplation and connection.

“Perhaps new worship practices will emerge as society takes both the fine-tuning that rules out atheism, and suffering that rules out God, seriously.”

Goff likes to think of Cosmopsychism as “the Liberal Democrats” – offering a third way between the austerity of atheism and the fantasy of religion. Within academia, he notes, the idea is now “taken much more seriously”. Evidently, however, many dismiss it as mumbo-jumbo pseudoscience.

Rest assured that Goff isn’t pitching himself as a prophet for a new religion. “I’m certainly not going to be starting a cult,” he says.

As the conversation ends, however, one thought remains: if the universe is conscious, and if that consciousness did indeed set the conditions for life, then who – or what – created the universe?


I don't see what advances Goff is making on Gaia or pantheism or Spinoza's essence and its infinite atributes - other than inventing a neologism for them, cosmopsychism.

This is metaphysics without going beyond the 'physics', without positing a supernatural, 'outside the world' world.

He is talking about God but is very reluctant to use the word. And humans have almost infinite ways of imagining, apprehending God, each being by definition radically incomplete.



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Re: New theory on God could spark new religion
Reply #74 - Apr 7th, 2024 at 10:54am
 
The Universe as a 'Consciousness' (as if it can be perceived by Humanity, in a 'human' context ) - pretty much sums up the 'lame' Consciousness of Humanity itself. A need to 'project' a 'Religious' (For Spirituality is 'Fashion' - ever since the shame of nakedness in the Garden full of fig leaves and snakes) exploitation to control the minds of others.
"Behold! The Church and I are the true messengers and representatives of the God Universe - heaven above thee! Thou shalt not attain God's presence and paradises to other worlds, but through the Church and I... and a 'fee'!"
"Behold! Worship thy Universe as thy God and yee shall free of all earthly sins that is the nature of 'life' which is the realm of the Serpent."
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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