Australian Politics Forum - Private School Funding

thegreatdivide

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Private School Funding
May 19^th, 2024 at 2:10pm

Before the small government /privatization virus took hold, Whitlam introduced free tertiary eduction ....BUT....as a trade off he was forced to accept public funding for private schools.

Much abused by Howard; now private schools are overfunded at all levels (tertiary and secondary) by the public purse, while public schools are underfunded.

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/comment/topic/2024/05/11/free-education-poss...

Free education is possible

In 1975, when I went to university, it was free. We were Gough Whitlam’s children – the beneficiaries of his education reforms. Back then, only 10 per cent of Australians went to university. Thanks in large part to Whitlam’s visionary policies – at least as far as higher education is concerned – that proportion is now close to 40 per cent.

Many of my fellow students at Macquarie University back in the day were also on teacher scholarships, which continued even when fees were abolished. They were being paid to study – not just to go on prac, as workplace placements are known, but to turn up to class every day.

Federal Education Minister Jason Clare has declared this country will need 80 per cent of the population to go on to tertiary education, including university, if we want to remain internationally competitive. However, another of Whitlam’s education policies has made that figure much harder to achieve than it needs to be: namely, the recurrent public funding of private schools. He did it to finally resolve the split with the Catholic anti-communist Democratic Labor Party that had kept Labor out of office for 23 years. It worked politically, but it has become a long-term disaster for Australian education.

Australia now has one of the most socially segregated school systems in the world. We are second worst in the OECD for the increasing concentration of disadvantaged students in disadvantaged schools, which compounds their disadvantage. Far from our schooling system helping to narrow the inevitable inequalities visited upon every child by the lottery of birth, our system uses public money to turbocharge them. I doubt this was Whitlam’s intention, and John Howard and his education minister David Kemp must bear much of the responsibility. They removed all of the remaining safeguards and deregulated the establishment of private schools, allowing them to open in areas where there was no need, essentially encouraging schools to compete against one another for students. They justified this by declaring parental choice should be the central driver of education policy and funding.

For perfectly obvious reasons, prioritising parental choice over children’s opportunities – no matter who their parents are – can only entrench generational privilege and underprivilege, which is exactly what it has done over the past two decades. The sources of disadvantage for children today are circumstances not of their own making or choice but of their birth: socioeconomic, location, immigration status, indigeneity or disability. Regardless of the intent of those creating our educational policy settings, the damage has been done and even governments that are uncomfortable with this inequality seem at a loss to know what to do about it.

If we are going to increase the participation of the least well-off students in tertiary education, we must first tackle their experience in primary and secondary education, not to mention early childhood, where the poorest are the ones most likely to miss out.
I am prepared to accept that Minister Clare has public education in his heart. He attended a public school, and was the first of his family to finish year 10. His predecessor in the previous Labor government, Tanya Plibersek, has long been a champion and, unusually for a politician, even a Labor one, sent her children to public schools. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is fond of talking about his own childhood in public housing with a single mother. I think they get it. I think they know our unfair, unequal and inefficient education system is a bleeding sore. They also know changing it is political dynamite, thanks to the combined lobbying of the churches, various conservative think tanks devoted to market forces and the more prosperous among our population who are now thoroughly indoctrinated with the “private schools good, public schools bad” mantra.

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« Last Edit: May 20^th, 2024 at 3:26pm by freediver »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #1 - May 19^th, 2024 at 3:03pm Quote: now private schools are overfunded at all levels I'm guessing you don't know the actual numbers. Just the spin that little pinks are supposed to put on them.
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74099 Gender:	Re: privatisation Reply #2 - May 19^th, 2024 at 3:33pm Private schools should not receive any funding. You want a private school, you pay for it.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #3 - May 19^th, 2024 at 3:42pm John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 3:33pm: Private schools should not receive any funding. You want a private school, you pay for it. So the government should only be allowed to fund 100% or 0% of a school? Did you read that in a pamphlet? Why not anywhere in between?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #4 - May 19^th, 2024 at 5:00pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 3:03pm:

Quote:

now private schools are overfunded at all levels

I'm guessing you don't know the actual numbers. Just the spin that little pinks are supposed to put on them.

The actual numbers?

(google)

"Per student, public schools received $16,174 on average in recurrent government funding in 2021, while Independent schools, which are able to charge unlimited tuition fees, received $11,840.17 July 2023"

The outcome?

Far from our schooling system helping to narrow the inevitable inequalities visited upon every child by the lottery of birth, our system uses public money to turbocharge them.

Try "spinning" that; the point is public schools are underfunded while public resources are handed to wealthy private schools.

John Smith is correct: you want your kids to go to schools which teach your "shared beliefs" ideology, that's your choice. I - and the general public who want equality of opportunity for all school kids - are not interested in funding you.

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John Smith

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Re: privatisation
Reply #5 - May 19^th, 2024 at 5:11pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 3:42pm:

John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 3:33pm:

Private schools should not receive any funding. You want a private school, you pay for it.

So the government should only be allowed to fund 100% or 0% of a school? Did you read that in a pamphlet? Why not anywhere in between?

No, the govt shouldn't fund private schools. The rest of your stupidity is yours and yours alone

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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freediver

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Re: privatisation
Reply #6 - May 19^th, 2024 at 5:26pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 5:00pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 3:03pm:

Quote:

now private schools are overfunded at all levels

I'm guessing you don't know the actual numbers. Just the spin that little pinks are supposed to put on them.

The actual numbers?

(google)

"Per student, public schools received $16,174 on average in recurrent government funding in 2021, while Independent schools, which are able to charge unlimited tuition fees, received $11,840.17 July 2023"

The outcome?

Far from our schooling system helping to narrow the inevitable inequalities visited upon every child by the lottery of birth, our system uses public money to turbocharge them.

Try "spinning" that; the point is public schools are underfunded while public resources are handed to wealthy private schools.

John Smith is correct: you want your kids to go to schools which teach your "shared beliefs" ideology, that's your choice. I - and the general public who want equality of opportunity for all school kids - are not interested in funding you.

So they are funded less than public schools, on a per student basis? In what sense is that "over" funded?

Quote:

Try "spinning" that; the point is public schools are underfunded while public resources are handed to wealthy private schools.

What do you think would happen if the government cut funding to private schools, and a bunch of students went to public schools instead, and some of the private schools had to close? Would that make it easier or harder for the government to fund public schools?

John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 5:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 3:42pm:

John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 3:33pm:

Private schools should not receive any funding. You want a private school, you pay for it.

So the government should only be allowed to fund 100% or 0% of a school? Did you read that in a pamphlet? Why not anywhere in between?

No, the govt shouldn't fund private schools. The rest of your stupidity is yours and yours alone

Can you explain why John? Or are you just chanting a mantra you read in a pamphlet?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #7 - May 19^th, 2024 at 6:05pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 5:26pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 5:00pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 3:03pm:

Quote:

now private schools are overfunded at all levels

I'm guessing you don't know the actual numbers. Just the spin that little pinks are supposed to put on them.

The actual numbers?

(google)

"Per student, public schools received $16,174 on average in recurrent government funding in 2021, while Independent schools, which are able to charge unlimited tuition fees, received $11,840.17 July 2023"

The outcome?

Far from our schooling system helping to narrow the inevitable inequalities visited upon every child by the lottery of birth, our system uses public money to turbocharge them.

Try "spinning" that; the point is public schools are underfunded while public resources are handed to wealthy private schools.

John Smith is correct: you want your kids to go to schools which teach your "shared beliefs" ideology, that's your choice. I - and the general public who want equality of opportunity for all school kids - are not interested in funding you.

So they are funded less than public schools, on a per student basis? In what sense is that "over" funded?

Good to see you asking a 'sensible' question (allowing for your crippled capacity for rational thought, of course).

(google)

https://www.indaily.com.au/news/adelaide/2024/04/30/campaign-begins-amid-public-...

The AEU has reported public schools will be underfunded by $1.8 billion from 2024-2028, with each student underfunded by an average of $2004 in 2024, based on the Schooling Resource Standard (SRS).

The SRS, based on recommendations made in the 2011 Review for Funding for Schooling, indicates the amount of public funding needed at a school for its students’ educational needs to be met.

Based on these figures, the AEU found all public schools in South Australia are being underfunded by a total of $337 million in 2024, while private schools are overfunded by $64.2 million.30 Apr 2024

That's $64 million which should be going to public schools in SA alone, based on those figures which themselvesare based on the SRS (noted above).

But in my book, NO public funding ought being going to private schools; the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all; any 'special' education requirements (mostly ideology) beyond that should be a matter for the private sector alone.

Quote:

What do you think would happen if the government cut funding to private schools, and a bunch of students went to public schools instead, and some of the private schools had to close? Would that make it easier or harder for the government to fund public schools?

Given the overfunding for private schools (fancy swimming pools etc), it's hard to say; but in any case education should be free up to the levels commensurate with the student's ability.

Note: literally free: after the infrastructure is built, Treasury can fund education for free because education is a 'renewable' resource (as one mainstream economist conceded); the transmission of knowledge from teacher to student (requiring mostly mental effort and time from both) doesnt expend scarce resources.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #8 - May 19^th, 2024 at 6:08pm Quote: But in my book, NO public funding ought being going to private schools I see you have resorted to John Smith's logic rather than pretending you have a rational argument. Is it because you like to use binary labels like private and public and you get confused if public funds go to "private" schools?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #9 - May 19^th, 2024 at 6:17pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 6:08pm:

Quote:

But in my book, NO public funding ought being going to private schools

I see you have resorted to John Smith's logic rather than pretending you have a rational argument.

Wow, a supreme example of your ideologically deluded brain's crippled capacity for reason, and/or simply missing the argument which I provided:

the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all; any 'special' education requirements (mostly ideology) beyond that should be a matter for the private sector alone.

Quote:

Is it because you like to use binary labels like private and public and you get confused if public funds go to "private" schools?

No, see above.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #10 - May 19^th, 2024 at 6:41pm Quote: the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all; any 'special' education requirements (mostly ideology) beyond that should be a matter for the private sector alone. That is not an explanation. That is you taking twice as long to say the same thing.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #11 - May 19^th, 2024 at 6:52pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 6:41pm:

Quote:

the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all; any 'special' education requirements (mostly ideology) beyond that should be a matter for the private sector alone.

That is not an explanation. That is you taking twice as long to say the same thing.

Priceless! (laughter is the best medicine

)

What part of "the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all" don't you understand?

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freediver

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Re: privatisation
Reply #12 - May 19^th, 2024 at 7:04pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 6:52pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 6:41pm:

Quote:

the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all; any 'special' education requirements (mostly ideology) beyond that should be a matter for the private sector alone.

That is not an explanation. That is you taking twice as long to say the same thing.

Priceless! (laughter is the best medicine

)

What part of "the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all" don't you understand?

1) It is illogical. Banning payments to private schools does not guarantee this.

2) It does not actually mean anything. It is vague enough to be interpreted any way you want. You could say the same thig in support of private school funding.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: privatisation
Reply #13 - May 19^th, 2024 at 7:57pm

For each school there is an income and assets test...................... once past the point determined, funding is progressively reduced in relation to income and assets - same as pension and unemployment - with a defined cut-off point.

Means the rich schools don't get richer out of the public purse. No more Olympic swimming pools in the backyard unless the school budget pays for it out of funds received for tuition.

One of the things wrong with our country at this time, and like affirmative action, it fed the fat who still copped all their benefits of connections and even 'name (I worked in the PS with a guy who was grandson of an Admiral - guess who was on the 'inside running'), and all the other forms of discrimination that persist in such bodies, as well as the largesse of 'belonging' to a socially disadvantaged or oppressed group.

Now look at the state of the joint ................. quarter-baked twerps are artificially fed into the Gauleiter spots to obey der Fuhrergruppen with the same predictable results as with the Nazis. What are these 'contracted senior management' in the PS other than Gauleiters appointed from the equivalent of the old schoolyard mobs, the SA, SS and other old party fighters and comrades?

How many are NOT of the 'old school tie' and 'connections' mobs? NFMIA!! (Nicht viele, wenn überhaupt!)

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #14 - May 20^th, 2024 at 12:22pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 7:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 6:52pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2024 at 6:41pm:

Quote:

the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all; any 'special' education requirements (mostly ideology) beyond that should be a matter for the private sector alone.

That is not an explanation. That is you taking twice as long to say the same thing.

Priceless! (laughter is the best medicine

)

What part of "the state's responsibility is to provide the best education for all" don't you understand?

1) It is illogical. Banning payments to private schools does not guarantee this.

Ah - progress: so an assertion that

"the state's responsibility is to provide the best (possible) education for all"

is "illogical", when ONLY the state can guarantee education for all, since not everyone can afford private education.

And to hand responsibility for education over to private instutions with their own axe to grind implies students being caught up in a competition between conflicting ideologies.

But let's examine your "logic" which claims my point about universal public education is "illogical":

FD:

Banning payments to private schools does not guarantee this

Does not guarantee what, exactly? Quality education? That's up to the state resourcing teachers and schools properly (same as private schools are resourced with the benefit of public AND private funds, allowing then to build flash swimming pools while public schools are under-resourced. ...).

By definition, the state CAN guarantee quality education for everyone regardless of a student's wealth - indeed there is no private education at all in Finland, a country which ranks among the highest in educational outcomes in the world.

Quote:

2) It does not actually mean anything. It is vague enough to be interpreted any way you want. You could say the same thig in support of private school funding.

Examined - and your errors exposed above.

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« Last Edit: May 20^th, 2024 at 12:34pm by thegreatdivide »

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