Australian Politics Forum - Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target

UnSubRocky

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #75 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:08pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 9:50am:

29% of 43% = 14.8% of the total.

It means that we have lowered our emissions by 29% of where we were. It means that we still have a little way to go before we get to 43% of where we were with carbon emissions.

I find the number 43% to be a rather random figure, too.

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At this stage...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #76 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:08pm

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 12:40pm:

The current level is 610.6MT.
The 43% is BELOW the 2005 level of 466MT.
43% below 2005 level is 265.6MT.
That would mean a drop of 345MtT by 2030.
Not achievable.

Nonsense.

From a quick google search:

The original Sun Cable proposal was 20GW.

Oz uses c. 30GW.

So 2 of the 'Suncable' projects plus storage, plus rooftop solar and batteries in Oz would enable 100% renewables for both Oz and Singapore's requirements; indeed 50% by 2030 would be easy.

It just needs politicians to pull their fingers out.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #77 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:16pm

Belgarion wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 10:22am:

Quote:

Nuclear power is clean, efficient, less dangerous and cheaper than any other form of mass energy production.

LOL. No it isn't.

You are a victim of the relentless fear campaign that has been waged in Australia for decades, encouraged by the vested interests that are making billions out of so called 'renewables' . Good summary here:

https://www.spectator.com.au/2024/06/the-big-renewable-energy-lie/

While some countries will need to develop nuclear energy, Oz isn't one of them.

The 'nuclear in Oz' proposal is a front for the fossil-fuel industry.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17644 Gender:	Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target Reply #78 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:28pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:08pm: The original Sun Cable proposal was 20GW. Oz uses c. 30GW. And when is it going to happen? How many GigaWatt HOURS? Ah back to batteries. How many Gigawatt hours of batteries at about $600,000 per MegaWatt hour?
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lee

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #79 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:39pm

philperth2010 wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 12:56pm:

Do you have a link to this report Lee???

It is freely available. You just need to do the maths.

"In the year to June 2005, Australia's total greenhouse gas emissions were 610.6 million tonnes of carbon dioxide-equivalent, according to the latest government data available."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-08/fact-check-carbon-emissions-under-the-coa...

"Australia’s greenhouse gas emissions were 467 million tonnes in the year ending June 2023, an increase of four million tonnes on the previous year. "

https://www.climatechangeauthority.gov.au/annual-progress-advice-0

"Committing to reduce Greenhouse gas emissions by 43%
from 2005 levels."

https://www.aofm.gov.au/sites/default/files/2024-02-02/Climate%20change%20slides...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #80 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:47pm

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:08pm:

The original Sun Cable proposal was 20GW.

Oz uses c. 30GW.

And when is it going to happen?

It's not going to happen because a couple of billionaires couldn't agree on the design for the scheme.

Government could get the job done in 5 years, funded by utilizing its currency-issuing capacity (making the billionaire's money redundant).

Quote:

How many GigaWatt HOURS?

(quick google)

Total electricity generation in Australia was estimated to be 265,232 gigawatt hours (GWh) in calendar year 2020.

Google also says: "to convert GWH into gigawatts (GW), you would divide the GWh value by the number of hours in a year (8,760 hours).

Quote:

Ah back to batteries. How many Gigawatt hours of batteries at about $600,000 per MegaWatt hour?

The currency-issuing government can subsidize batteries and pumped hydro storage. Once completed, Oz will have the world's cheapest electricity.

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Frank

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #81 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:47pm:

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:08pm:

The original Sun Cable proposal was 20GW.

Oz uses c. 30GW.

And when is it going to happen?

It's not going to happen because a couple of billionaires couldn't agree on the design for the scheme.

Government could get the job done in 5 years, funded by utilizing its currency-issuing capacity (making the billionaire's money redundant).

Quote:

How many GigaWatt HOURS?

(quick google)

Total electricity generation in Australia was estimated to be 265,232 gigawatt hours (GWh) in calendar year 2020.

Google also says: "to convert GWH into gigawatts (GW), you would divide the GWh value by the number of hours in a year (8,760 hours).

Quote:

Ah back to batteries. How many Gigawatt hours of batteries at about $600,000 per MegaWatt hour?

The currency-issuing government can subsidize batteries and pumped hydro storage. Once completed, Oz will have the world's cheapest electricity.

Magic, innit!

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #82 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 2:07pm

Frank wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:54pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:47pm:

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:08pm:

The original Sun Cable proposal was 20GW.

Oz uses c. 30GW.

And when is it going to happen?

It's not going to happen because a couple of billionaires couldn't agree on the design for the scheme.

Government could get the job done in 5 years, funded by utilizing its currency-issuing capacity (making the billionaire's money redundant).

Quote:

How many GigaWatt HOURS?

(quick google)

Total electricity generation in Australia was estimated to be 265,232 gigawatt hours (GWh) in calendar year 2020.

Google also says: "to convert GWH into gigawatts (GW), you would divide the GWh value by the number of hours in a year (8,760 hours).

Quote:

Ah back to batteries. How many Gigawatt hours of batteries at about $600,000 per MegaWatt hour?

The currency-issuing government can subsidize batteries and pumped hydro storage. Once completed, Oz will have the world's cheapest electricity.

Magic, innit!

The PV and battery technology is 'magic', certainly. (whereas windmills and pumped-hydro are simple and very old technology).

Whereas your refusal to consider the currency-issuing capacity of the state is blind, obsolete (from the 'gold- standard' era), flat earth economics.

[From the MMT thread today:
"To that end, the primary aim of GIMMS is education that provides the tools to enable people to understand that the state of the public finances per se is not a limiting factor in government spending, and that the central question revolves around the development and distribution of real resources, along with the political nature of those decisions.

GIMMS’ mandate is to challenge the household budget narrative of the state finances that dominates the daily political and media discourse and to encourage a discussion about the full range of government’s priorities and policy options and how best they can serve the public purpose".

Educating the blind...ain't easy.

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« Last Edit: Jun 12^th, 2024 at 2:13pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #83 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 2:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:47pm:

Total electricity generation in Australia was estimated to be 265,232 gigawatt hours (GWh) in calendar year 2020.

Which will only GROW with electrification. No gas appliances, more EV's etc. Now how many weeks storage do you need. The sun might be shining somewhere, but unless your PV's are on wheels that is no guarantee. Hail storms create havoc with PV arrays.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:47pm:

Google also says: "to convert GWH into gigawatts (GW), you would divide the GWh value by the number of hours in a year (8,760 hours)

Yes numpty so how many hours storage?

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:47pm:

The currency-issuing government can subsidize batteries and pumped hydro storage

Ah subsidies? To whom do we pay these subsidies? The nice renewables people currently holding Germany etc to ransom? Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #84 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 2:43pm

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 2:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:47pm:

Total electricity generation in Australia was estimated to be 265,232 gigawatt hours (GWh) in calendar year 2020.

Which will only GROW with electrification. No gas appliances, more EV's etc. Now how many weeks storage do you need. The sun might be shining somewhere, but unless your PV's are on wheels that is no guarantee. Hail storms create havoc with PV arrays.

Stop stalling.

Build 2 Sun-cable projects, and then get back to us before you start bleating about how much storage we need.

Quote:

Yes numpty so how many hours storage?

Addressed above, let's find out what storage we need to to ensure 24 hour stable output from 2 Sun-cable projects.

Quote:

Ah subsidies? To whom do we pay these subsidies? The nice renewables people currently holding Germany etc to ransom? Roll Eyes

See the answer to Frank above. Germany may well need to start up its nuclear plants. No doubt Russia is big enough to go renewables.

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lee

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #85 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 3:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 2:43pm:

Build 2 Sun-cable projects, and then get back to us before you start bleating about how much storage we need.

So you don't think you need storage? Grin

That's putting the cart before the horse. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 2:43pm:

Addressed above, let's find out what storage we need to to ensure 24 hour stable output from 2 Sun-cable projects.

So why not do that before it is built? Roll Eyes

So why don't you want to admit go where these subsidies will go? Roll Eyes

We know you don't have the knowledge to teach anybody, let alone the blind. You don't even acknowledge that Keen etc use models with their own, known and unknown, uncertainties. Grin

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12952 Gender:	Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target Reply #86 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:05pm (corrected next post).
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #87 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:08pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:05pm:

TGD:

Build 2 Sun-cable projects, and then get back to us before you start bleating about how much storage we need.

So you don't think you need storage? Grin

That's putting the cart before the horse. Roll Eyes

Low IQ , or fraudulent....

Renewables need storage, let's build 2 Sun-cable schemes, and then see how much storage we need, while gradually 'turning off the gas'.

Quote:

So why not do that before it is built? Roll Eyes

So fossil-fuel goons like you can't insist we must know how much variable renewable energy we need before we start building the PVs and windfarms required to meet our Paris commitments.

Quote:

So why don't you want to admit go where these subsidies will go? Roll Eyes

Low IQ - not fraud in this case - you simply don't understand the monetary system.

Subsidies can go where the government thinks fit (householders and/or private companies).

Here's someone who does understand the monetary system.

https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61799

IMF holds a religious gathering in Tokyo – to keep the troops in line

(note: lee being a prime example of an obedient foot- soldier)...

Prof. Mitchell, quoting heterodox economist Joan Robinson:

"The neo-classical heritage still has a great influence, not only on the teaching of economics but in forming public opinion generally, or at least in providing public opinion with its slogans. But when it comes to an actual issue, it has nothing concrete to say. Its latter-day practitioners take refuge in building up more and more elaborate mathematical manipulations and get more and more annoyed at anyone asking them what it is that they are supposed to be manipulating.

In so far as economic doctrines have an influence on the choice of objectives for national policy, on the whole it is obscurantist rather than helpful.

The solutions offered by mainstream economists are no less delusory than those of the theologians they displaced".

...."solutions" like - employment is increasing, so let's kill the economy by lifting interest rates....a Reverse Bank speciality.

As for "learning", it's moot in your case.

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« Last Edit: Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:24pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #88 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:32pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:08pm:

Low IQ , or fraudulent....

Wow. So you really don't think storage is necessary. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:08pm:

So fossil-fuel goons like you can't insist we must know how much variable renewable energy we need before we start building the PVs and windfarms required to meet our Paris commitments.

So you don't know either of the propositions but 2 x Cable Suns will do it. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:08pm:

Subsidies can go where the government thinks fit (householders and/or private companies).

Yes. Subsidies only mask the cost. Roll Eyes

And quoting Bill Mitchell? An MMT'er. That's rich. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 5:08pm:

Its latter-day practitioners take refuge in building up more and more elaborate mathematical manipulations and get more and more annoyed at anyone asking them what it is that they are supposed to be manipulating.

You mean like the fanciful models of Keen? "more and more mathematical manipulations" Grin

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aquascoot

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Re: Coalition To Dump Australia's Climate Target
Reply #89 - Jun 12^th, 2024 at 6:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 2:07pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:54pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:47pm:

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2024 at 1:08pm:

The original Sun Cable proposal was 20GW.

Oz uses c. 30GW.

And when is it going to happen?

It's not going to happen because a couple of billionaires couldn't agree on the design for the scheme.

Government could get the job done in 5 years, funded by utilizing its currency-issuing capacity (making the billionaire's money redundant).

Quote:

How many GigaWatt HOURS?

(quick google)

Total electricity generation in Australia was estimated to be 265,232 gigawatt hours (GWh) in calendar year 2020.

Google also says: "to convert GWH into gigawatts (GW), you would divide the GWh value by the number of hours in a year (8,760 hours).

Quote:

Ah back to batteries. How many Gigawatt hours of batteries at about $600,000 per MegaWatt hour?

The currency-issuing government can subsidize batteries and pumped hydro storage. Once completed, Oz will have the world's cheapest electricity.

Magic, innit!

The PV and battery technology is 'magic', certainly. (whereas windmills and pumped-hydro are simple and very old technology).

Whereas your refusal to consider the currency-issuing capacity of the state is blind, obsolete (from the 'gold- standard' era), flat earth economics.

[From the MMT thread today:
"To that end, the primary aim of GIMMS is education that provides the tools to enable people to understand that the state of the public finances per se is not a limiting factor in government spending, and that the central question revolves around the development and distribution of real resources, along with the political nature of those decisions.

GIMMS’ mandate is to challenge the household budget narrative of the state finances that dominates the daily political and media discourse and to encourage a discussion about the full range of government’s priorities and policy options and how best they can serve the public purpose".

Educating the blind...ain't easy.

hi great divide, arent you chinese?

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