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Lowering the age of crim responsibility (Read 9519 times)
thegreatdivide
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #510 - Dec 14th, 2024 at 4:32pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 13th, 2024 at 7:55pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13th, 2024 at 11:01am:
So we know there is a positive correlation between poverty and youth crime; how can the government intervene to fix the problem?

Interestingly, Trumpy (who ain't no Libertarian), understands the scale of the intervention required to fix the homelessness problem:

(The Independent)

Elon Musk calls homelessness a ‘lie’ and ‘propaganda’ — and Trump is listening

Musk says “Homeless is a misnomer. It implies that someone got a little bit behind on their mortgage, and if you just gave them a job, they’d be back on their feet,” he told former Fox News personality Tucker Carlson in October. “What you actually have are violent drug zombies with dead eyes, and needles and human feces on the street.”

Trump has a view on how to deal with it:

Trump, meanwhile, says people experiencing homelessness should be forced into treatment or mental institutions “or face arrest”.

His campaign has promised to “end the nightmare” of the “dangerously deranged” with a plan to “open large parcels of inexpensive land, bring in doctors, psychiatrists, social workers, and drug rehab specialists, and create tent cities where the homeless can be relocated and their problems identified”.

He wants to “bring back mental institutions to house and rehabilitate those who are severely mentally ill or dangerously deranged with the goal of reintegrating them back into society.


Good on ya', Trumpy;  and necessary  (despite what "bleeding-heart liberals" say) ...although rather costly for the taxpayer?

Meanwhile, a view from the ("bleeding -hearts") mainstream Left:

Musk and Trump are not alone. 

Influential billionaires and right-wing think tanks have been advancing legislation that criminalizes homelessness in Congress and at the Supreme Court...,


"Criminalizing homelessness" - there's a 'novel' approach....

“and they all share this backwards, incorrect view that if we punish people enough, they will choose not to be poor”, according to Jesse Rabinowitz, campaign and communications director with the National Homelessness Law Center.

Rabinovitch continues:

The primary driver of homelessness, particularly among families, is a lack of stable affordable housing, with evictions, overcrowded housing, domestic violence and job losses sending homeless families into shelters and onto the streets.

“Ending homelessness comes down to three things: using person-centered and evidence-based policy and program design, providing key resources at a scale necessary to get the job done, and showing the leadership and public will to keep a long-term commitment to our goals. Our leaders have honored that commitment to veterans. It is now time for them to honor it for the rest of the nation.”


Yes, but neither side (Left or Right) - with a different view of the causes of, and solutions to,  the problem - has addressed how to pay for these massive needed  interventions.

Gnads says....stay away from taxing me or 'hardworking (!) billionaires'. (They actually  "earned" all that money, you see....like Musk who has "earned" over $200 billion since Trump's win). 

So the 'funding-can'  justs keeps getting kicked down the road.

Deplorable.


Grin Just STFU you plonker.


No, thank you.

Quote:
Unless it's escaped you're attention the evil Trump is now back as POTUS for the second time in 8 years.


Er you are confused; you failed to notice the size of the massive government intervention which Trump's policies to deal with social problems (outlined in the article), and the contradiction of funding this massive intervention in the face of Musk's government cost-cutting mission.

Quote:
Why don't you prove you're a better man than Peccar - now Trumps back in for a 2nd term .... & phuk off.


Because I have never suffered from TDS....

I'm all for massive government intervention to fix entrenched social  problems.  As Trump said in 2016 re inner-city blacks in the US:

You are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones. your young men are in prison..." 

I knew Trump was in with a good chance against Hillary, after showing the nous to at least confront the reality of entrenched poverty, while the Dems were only continuing with their old lie: "we have your backs"..... BS.

So  back to the problem:

Studies have shown a positive correlation between poverty and youth crime; how can the government intervene to fix the problem?

graps and lee have run away, perhaps you can assist them with some ideas?


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thegreatdivide
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #511 - Dec 20th, 2024 at 9:29am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14th, 2024 at 4:32pm:
Studies have shown a positive correlation between poverty and youth crime; how can the government intervene to fix the problem?

graps and lee have run away, perhaps you can assist them with some ideas?


Anyone?
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UnSubRocky
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #512 - Dec 20th, 2024 at 3:29pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20th, 2024 at 9:29am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14th, 2024 at 4:32pm:
Studies have shown a positive correlation between poverty and youth crime; how can the government intervene to fix the problem?

graps and lee have run away, perhaps you can assist them with some ideas?


Anyone?


Criminals tend to be middle-income to upper middle-income people. They make their money very carefully. If you are talking about petty crime, yes, you would find that the more impoverished of people committing most of the crime.

Being poor and working few hours per week, I had nothing much to do with my time when I went on leave. I overspent on unnecessary expenses to a point that I had to stop spending on anything fun. Given the reduction in spending, I had to find different ways to entertain myself. I noticed that I started going around acting aggressive in situations that did not call for it. But once I was back at work, I tended to be the normal self.

Give teenagers something to do. Most of the antisocial behaviour is due to teenagers having no sense of direction. When they have something to do, they have something to defend. Then the person is not likely to risk losing what they earned.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #513 - Dec 21st, 2024 at 10:56am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 20th, 2024 at 3:29pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20th, 2024 at 9:29am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14th, 2024 at 4:32pm:
Studies have shown a positive correlation between poverty and youth crime; how can the government intervene to fix the problem?

graps and lee have run away, perhaps you can assist them with some ideas?


Anyone?


Criminals tend to be middle-income to upper middle-income people. They make their money very carefully. If you are talking about petty crime, yes, you would find that the more impoverished of people committing most of the crime.


Directly refuted by google:

"People from lower social classes are more likely to commit crime than people from upper classes, but there are many factors that influence crime and social class is not the only one:
Socioeconomic status
Research shows that people from lower socioeconomic classes are more likely to be involved in criminal activities."

Quote:
Being poor and working few hours per week, I had nothing much to do with my time when I went on leave. I ...etc etc


You erroneous analysis re the socio-economic status of criminals is based on your attempt to  understand  the world on the basis of your own experience.

Macroeconomic phenomena cannot be explained by an individual, on the basis of his own (micro economic) experience.

eg in a depression, everyone tries - sensibly for the individual - to save money (because of fear of unemployment etc), which only makes the macro economy worse as total consumption decreases.   

Quote:
Give teenagers something to do. Most of the antisocial behaviour is due to teenagers having no sense of direction. When they have something to do, they have something to defend. Then the person is not likely to risk losing what they earned.


A correct statement as it stands; but, being anaware of - incapable of comprehending - macro economic (nation-wide) forces acting on individuals, you fail to say WHO will "give (wayward) teenagers in a community something to do", and how such a program will be administered.

So: studies show a positive correlation between poverty and youth crime....

Can any one assist graps, gnads, lee - and SR who can't
see past his own navel?
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« Last Edit: Dec 21st, 2024 at 11:04am by thegreatdivide »  
 
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UnSubRocky
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #514 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 12:05pm
 
You are refuting my argument based on what "google" says? I use google to look up reputable sources. However, I generally turn to books or verifiable websites to do my research.

Richer people tend to get away with crimes. When they are not convicted, it is deemed that no crimes were convicted. A poor person, with few resources or responsibilities to fall back upon, might get caught up in a criminal act. They are likely to rely on the public defender. However, ultimately, they are likely to be convicted.

Just yesterday, a person got caught up in an altercation with someone from a high-income employment role. The "rich bitch" (as I shall call him) decided to verbally abuse the person over a matter of a parking space. He decided to use his position of authority to act all entitled in a place that was not his to dictate. If it was a poor person who did such a thing, his car would be up on bricks in another part of the shopping centre car park.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #515 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 2:32pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 22nd, 2024 at 12:05pm:
You are refuting my argument based on what "google" says? I use google to look up reputable sources. However, I generally turn to books or verifiable websites to do my research.


Your error:  google  is - among alia - an index to many reputable studies showing the correlation  between poverty and youth crime,  as opposed to your erroneous  statements based merely on your  own experiences and and your own "research".

The trustworthiness, or otherwise, of google searches   is amplified  by a consensus of the search results, and the qualification of the authors of the study.

eg please  google a link to a study which affirms your ignorant assertion that 
"Criminals tend to be middle-income to upper middle-income people"
; bearing in mind the issue here is violent (youth) crime against persons 

Quote:
Richer people tend to get away with crimes. When they are not convicted, it is deemed that no crimes were convicted.


Now you have changed your story: rich people may well find it easier get away with some crimes or bad behaviour,  but not violent crimes against persons; but the fact remains, poverty is correlated to youth crime, and it is youth crime which is causing the "adult crime - adult time" hoohaa in Oz at present.   


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« Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2024 at 2:39pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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UnSubRocky
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #516 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 7:03pm
 
How does poverty cause criminality?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #517 - Dec 23rd, 2024 at 12:42pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 22nd, 2024 at 7:03pm:
How does poverty cause criminality?


You mean: why is there a positive correlation between poverty and crime....

Anyway (off the top of my head) because chronic un-met  need results in bad behaviour?

For a more general overview:

https://hilo.hawaii.edu/campuscenter/hohonu/volumes/documents/Vol07x03TheCauseof...

(excerpt)

Poverty was one of the first aspects ever thought to be related to criminal activity. Many youth deal with this epidemic, as 17.4 % of American children lived in poverty in 2006. Growing up in poverty is like being exiled from society, it is being alienated in your own country (Krugman 1)

Although many propose that poverty is crime's root cause, another view suggests that inequality is the main source of crime. Poverty is considered to be absolute deprivation while inequality is defined as relative deprivation. In other words, absolute deprivation is the lack of the resources needed to maintain a quality life and relative deprivation is having a lack of resources
compared to those in the same community. It is believed that each individual assesses inequality in their own way. Property crime is the most common crime correlated with inequality, as it allows individuals to balance the resources around them. Other individuals can grow a deep anger associated with inequality that produces violent behavior. This deep anger angle is becoming more prominent with many criminologists. A quote from Karl Marx sums up inequality. Marx says; 'A house can be large or small; as long as the surrounding houses are equally small it satisfies social demands. But if a palace rises beside the little house, the little house shrinks into a hut (Poverty, Inequality and Crime.2)


So how do we ensure everyone has access to above poverty employment (as opposed to poverty level "welfare") , to enable access to basic needs, and with it ability to engage postively with society?




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« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2024 at 12:50pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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UnSubRocky
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #518 - Dec 24th, 2024 at 12:38pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 23rd, 2024 at 12:42pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 22nd, 2024 at 7:03pm:
How does poverty cause criminality?


You mean: why is there a positive correlation between poverty and crime....

Anyway (off the top of my head) because chronic un-met  need results in bad behaviour?


For your theory to be proven true, it must be accepted that indigenous children have resources given to them at a rate that exceeds that of non-indigenous children. Therefore, the rate of criminal in non-indigenous families must be higher than those of indigenous families, because of their chronic un-met needs.

Why should crime be tolerated among those indigenous people, when they have their basic needs met?
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Gnads
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #519 - Dec 25th, 2024 at 7:51pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 14th, 2024 at 12:14pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 13th, 2024 at 7:50pm:
That would put me in the same category as you ..... only I'm not a big pathological lying story teller as you.

Yeah I understand you think it's all true.  Grin


No wonder why I hate going on leave. I would not be surprised if you are that f** that stood with that glum look on his face, thinking he is above the law, awaiting his boyfriend's decision to make my life a bit of a problem.

You don't realise this, but I have been subjected to death threats by drug dealers, drug users, police, ambo, members of the armed forces, and certain politicians, ever since I was a child.

The reason: I am anti-drug. And that gets in the way of the above groups' ability to retain job security. But, hey, you keep being you. Someone will come along some time in the near future and see to it that you don't get internet access.


You inferring I'm a poof?  Grin

The only one who has made your life a bit of a problem is yourself.

Gees the whole gamut out to get you .... you were anti-drug as a 10 yr old?  and a threat to these people? Grin

Yet you went onto use whatever & become an alcoholic.

last highlight - Is that some sort of threat you're making?
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #520 - Dec 27th, 2024 at 2:47pm
 
For all I know, you might be a bit of a poof. Not that it even matters. It took you 2 weeks to respond with that level of wit? I would expect better.

Most of my problems are my fault. But, I have not had the best of parenting. I have not had the worst of parenting, either.

I was shot as a 10 y.o. for telling off some little sh
i
t for being a little sh
i
t. Unfortunately, I did not know that he had an uncle that was in the drug dealing business. I also did not know that this uncle was part of the Australian Army. So, police could do nothing, even if I asked them to do something about it.

Only recently (the last 6 months) I have found out where the drugs are sent in this town for pick up. I know of two places that are drug dens. And I have noted that there are people running certain organisations that are dealing drugs in town. People have made it so obvious that I have been targeted with expulsion from using these organisations or affiliated organisations. I had to quit training at one place, because the supervisor at this place decided that I was too much of a risk to retain.

Oh, I drink. In fact, I am drinking right now. Surprisingly, I have lost the desire to drink in the last few months. I may even quit (*snicker*) drinking (*chortle*) in the year 2025. With the way my training is going, I will have to stay focused for my new job.
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Gnads
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #521 - Dec 28th, 2024 at 9:10am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 27th, 2024 at 2:47pm:
For all I know, you might be a bit of a poof. Not that it even matters. It took you 2 weeks to respond with that level of wit? I would expect better.

Most of my problems are my fault. But, I have not had the best of parenting. I have not had the worst of parenting, either.

I was shot as a 10 y.o. for telling off some little sh
i
t for being a little sh
i
t. Unfortunately, I did not know that he had an uncle that was in the drug dealing business. I also did not know that this uncle was part of the Australian Army. So, police could do nothing, even if I asked them to do something about it.

Only recently (the last 6 months) I have found out where the drugs are sent in this town for pick up. I know of two places that are drug dens. And I have noted that there are people running certain organisations that are dealing drugs in town. People have made it so obvious that I have been targeted with expulsion from using these organisations or affiliated organisations. I had to quit training at one place, because the supervisor at this place decided that I was too much of a risk to retain.

Oh, I drink. In fact, I am drinking right now. Surprisingly, I have lost the desire to drink in the last few months. I may even quit (*snicker*) drinking (*chortle*) in the year 2025. With the way my training is going, I will have to stay focused for my new job.



Yeah so? .... you're not a real priority. I was having a browse & there you were again with some other fanciful Disneyland story.

I re-iterate - a 10 yr old shot for telling another kid off? Yeah nah. Roll Eyes
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #522 - Dec 28th, 2024 at 12:39pm
 
You don't realise how easily some people can be triggered. Shooting a child in Australia is easy if you don't get prosecuted because of your racial background and the fact that there is a loss of 'business' if you don't show your drug dealing mates that you mean business.
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #523 - Dec 28th, 2024 at 7:09pm
 
Why is this in Aboriginal Affairs?   
(heh, heh, heh)....
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Lowering the age of crim responsibility
Reply #524 - Dec 29th, 2024 at 12:03pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 24th, 2024 at 12:38pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 23rd, 2024 at 12:42pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 22nd, 2024 at 7:03pm:
How does poverty cause criminality?


You mean: why is there a positive correlation between poverty and crime....

Anyway (off the top of my head) because chronic un-met  need results in bad behaviour?


For your theory to be proven true, it must be accepted that indigenous children have resources given to them at a rate that exceeds that of non-indigenous children.


A classic case of reversal of cause and effect, a specialty of Conservatives.

For your information, black kids in broken, poverty- stricken, welfare-dependent families aren't "given more resources than white kids" - I'll let reality  speak for itself

Whereas the proven positive correlation between poverty and inequality,  as a cause of crime, is not a theory, it's an observed reality. 



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