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The Voice! The Voice anniversary! (Read 1111 times)
Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #30 - Oct 19th, 2024 at 4:58pm
 
**corrects again**

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 19th, 2024 at 4:21pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 19th, 2024 at 12:15pm:
Now that, Poppets, is what is called 'a rant' and 'a rave' ... an informed public is the least likely to be betrayed by its politicians.... who can never be trusted.

Don't cry so much Skanka and Smith - the clock is ticking - the people will let you know come election time.... where's poor mothra?  Where's poor old Aussie defeated over Cambra and Brittany?

Carried off the field on stetchers?







Not so oddly - your vernacular sounds familiar.......   Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #31 - Oct 19th, 2024 at 5:00pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 19th, 2024 at 4:52pm:
There is no lie ... it was all about power, (their)truth, treaty and reparations.

Wholly and solely. The actions of the state Labor Govts are proof of that.

Like them you don't seem to grasp - that NO means NO.

No special privileges or divisive deals done with minorities, including Aboriginals.

You guilt ridden self loathing lefty arseholes can go and get stuffed.

You're not progressive - you're regressive.


There is the truth. They are actually Fascists no matter what they claim to be their allegiance... 'left' or 'right'.  Fascist is as Fascist does!
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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SadKangaroo
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #32 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 7:13am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 19th, 2024 at 4:58pm:
**corrects again**

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 19th, 2024 at 4:21pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 19th, 2024 at 12:15pm:
Now that, Poppets, is what is called 'a rant' and 'a rave' ... an informed public is the least likely to be betrayed by its politicians.... who can never be trusted.

Don't cry so much Skanka and Smith - the clock is ticking - the people will let you know come election time.... where's poor mothra?  Where's poor old Aussie defeated over Cambra and Brittany?

Carried off the field on stetchers?







Not so oddly - your vernacular sounds familiar.......   Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin


Now you're just running scared.

What is it about the truth that has you fleeing every time I bring up real arguments? You can't handle the reality staring you in the face, and it shows.

Your pathetic weakness is on full display for everyone to witness.
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SadKangaroo
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #33 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 7:46am
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 19th, 2024 at 4:52pm:
There is no lie ... it was all about power, (their)truth, treaty and reparations.

Wholly and solely. The actions of the state Labor Govts are proof of that.

Like them you don't seem to grasp - that NO means NO.


We voted NO on a constitutional change to enshrine an Indigenous advisory body to parliament, "The Voice."

That’s it. One single element from the Uluru Statement required a referendum and a double majority to pass. It didn’t, so there will be no Voice. Simple as that.

We did not vote NO on the entirety of the Uluru Statement or any future Indigenous policies. The Voice was one part, and that’s all.

YOU might have voted against everything else in your own head, but that wasn’t what was on the table.

Claiming we voted NO to everything else is as absurd as saying we rejected pineapple on pizzas at the referendum. Stop inventing nonsense. The question was crystal clear:

Quote:
“A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

Do you approve this proposed alteration?”


What part of this don’t you get?

This is where you—and people like you—are outright lying about the situation, either out of sheer stupidity, wilful ignorance, or malicious intent.

It's been explained to you and your crowd countless times, so the fact that you persist with this false narrative is no accident. It’s a deliberate and deceitful choice.

Labor's platform was crystal clear when they ran for office. They made their intentions around Indigenous Australians known, and the people voted them in. If you didn’t bother to read it or couldn’t comprehend it, that’s your failure, not some secret conspiracy.

Everything that's happening aligns 100% with what they campaigned on. There’s no stealth agenda here, just your inability to face facts.

Here are a few examples straight from their election platform:

Quote:
And we cannot look to the future without coming to terms with our past. That must start by listening to the generosity of the Uluru Statement from the Heart and acting – including through a Voice to Parliament enshrined in the Constitution. We will work with Australia's First Nations people to achieve recognition, justice and a strong voice in our national affairs – because it's well past time to complete the historic task of reconciliation.

Labor is committed to reconciliation, truth-telling, the empowerment of First Nations people and to self-determination. These principles will guide and underpin Labor policies and programs. Labor supports all elements of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, including a constitutionally enshrined Voice to Parliament, a Makarrata Commission for agreement making and a national process of truth telling.

Labor acknowledges First Nations people are the traditional custodians of the land. Today they are major landowners in Northern Australia making them key partners for Northern development. Labor will work with them to address systemic disadvantage, ensure quality education, housing and basic services, and provide training and skills so that First Nations workers so they can gain employment as skilled workers and to develop Indigenous cultural enterprises.

Labor will expand trades and traineeship opportunities for Indigenous Australians.

Australia’s Indigenous cultures are the oldest continuous cultures on earth. Labor is committed to effective protection of First Nations cultural heritage.

Support programs for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to work on and manage country that support jobs, particularly through considering expanding long-term funding of and recognition for the highly successful Indigenous Ranger and Indigenous Protected Area programs;

Labor supports the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and supports efforts to increase indigenous participation in UN forums.

Include provisions that have the effect of restricting the Commonwealth’s procurement arrangements from any form of preference for the purpose of:
iv. Implementing measures for the health, welfare and economic and social advancement of Indigenous people;

Ensure Australian uranium mining, milling and rehabilitation is based on world best practice standards, extensive continuing research on environmental impacts and the health and safety of employees and affected communities, particularly Indigenous communities;

Foster a constructive relationship between mining companies and Indigenous communities affected by uranium mining; and Prohibit the mining of uranium within national parks under International Union for Conservation of Nature protected area category 1A, category 1B, and category 2, and listed world heritage areas.

Full platform is available here.


You, Grap, and anyone else whining about this are not victims.

This is democracy in action, plain and simple.

All the information was out there for anyone willing to be informed on election day. If people chose to ignore it, that’s their problem.

The electorate was informed, and they cast their votes accordingly. That’s democracy.

If you can’t handle the outcome, take the advice of many like yourself when defending Abbott, Turnbull, Abbott and Morrison, and just leave.

Simple.
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Gnads
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #34 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:08am
 
The only thing deliberate and deceitful is State Labor Govts thinking they have a right or tyhe authority to go down the treaty path ... the treaty path is all about reparations.

They are also party to "freehold" native title claims without releasing any details ... so they must have something to hide because these land handovers are all about money.

When Aboriginals are in receipt of bordering on $36 billion a year from taxpayers for education, health, welfare and employment programs specifically for them only then you should answer the question as to when is enough enough?

The details of the one bit of the Uluru statement being what the referendum was all about is BS.

It's all connected.

There were & are already 100's and 100's of Aboriginal bodies that represent/advise on Aboriginal issues to Govt. NIAA ring any bells?

Adding another level of bureaucracy to our govt through the Constitution based on race was a stupid idea ... and no one has actually been able to pin point what actually it's capacity or power would have been - let alone who'd be on it.

All our current Politicians  - MPs and Senators are elected by all Australians ... including Aboriginals.

Why should they have had 2 chops at the cherry tree or are now able to have anything else implemented because of the Uluru statement?

Despite all your woke defense of what is happening with (their)Truth, Treaty & freehold land claims ..... it continues to be all about power & reparations.
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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Captain Nemo
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #35 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:20am
 
I look forward to the time when there will be one Australian flag and "Welcome to country" is a thing of the past.

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The 2025 election could be a shocker.
WWW  
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Gnads
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #36 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:26am
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:20am:
I look forward to the time when there will be one Australian flag and "Welcome to country" is a thing of the past.



Hear, hear.
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #37 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:37am
 
Apartheid IS a direct assault on any democracy of equals.

(That'll get their ulcers burning this morning.)

The two gentlemen below me have put it very nicely.

Footnote:-  I was frankly astounded to hear Uncle Calma (think it was) actually ask the burning question:-  "What special rights do Aborigines have?" - and the interviewer neatly side-steeped away from giving any answer.

The right to demand huge freehold swathes of land, something nobody else can do, and even have such nonsense received as 'reasonable'. 

The enormous number of representative groups that nobody else has.

The clearest examples of 'inside running' on any 'issue' they choose to raise, something nobody else has.

Mandatory consultation on any 'issue' they choose to raise, something nobody else has over the same issues.

A benevolent hearing in every avenue including media, government and all, over any 'issue' they wish to raise, something nobody else has over the same issues.  In fact, any opposing or differing view is met with a verbal violence which is frankly astounding to any reasoning person, and is startlingly reminiscent of the blatant abuse used by any despotic movement in history. (look at here for example).

The 'right' to demand a 'sovereignty' totally unexplained and totally unreasonable and unworkable in any democracy.

The right to demand and actually expect 'treaties' between themselves and the very nation of which they are part - or of which they choose to not be part, in which case their citizenship is revoked, along with all privileges of citizenship.

The right to dictate to elected and appointed government what they consider to be their entitlements, something nobody else has.


Amazing but all true.
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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2024 at 10:00am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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SadKangaroo
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #38 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:48am
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:08am:
The details of the one bit of the Uluru statement being what the referendum was all about is BS.


You are categorically and demonstrably wrong. Your refusal to acknowledge this stems not from ignorance, but from sheer stubbornness, because the truth doesn’t align with your agenda.

Quote:
It's all connected.


It is connected in the sense that the Voice, like Treaty and Truth Telling, were elements of the Uluru Statement.

Quote:
There were & are already 100's and 100's of Aboriginal bodies that represent/advise on Aboriginal issues to Govt. NIAA ring any bells?

Adding another level of bureaucracy to our govt through the Constitution based on race was a stupid idea ... and no one has actually been able to pin point what actually it's capacity or power would have been - let alone who'd be on it.


These factors may well have influenced why some within the majority "No" vote chose not to support the referendum question.

Quote:
All our current Politicians  - MPs and Senators are elected by all Australians ... including Aboriginals.

Why should they have had 2 chops at the cherry tree or are now able to have anything else implemented because of the Uluru statement?


There will not be a constitutionally enshrined Voice to Parliament; the electorate voted against it.

Similarly, the nation elected Labor in the last federal election, with a platform that explicitly included the following:

Quote:
“Labor supports all elements of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, including a constitutionally enshrined Voice to Parliament, a Makarrata Commission for agreement-making, and a national process of truth-telling.”


YOU may personally disagree with this outcome, but that is the essence of democracy.

The facts don't care about your feelings.

Quote:
Despite all your woke defense of what is happening with (their)Truth, Treaty & freehold land claims ..... it continues to be all about power & reparations.


By all means, oppose Truth Telling and Reconciliation, but do so with integrity. Don't base your argument on the dishonest and blatantly misleading claim that the referendum was a vote against these principles, because it simply wasn’t. The question on the ballot did not even touch upon them, not remotely.

You, Grap, and those who share your views, must stop perpetuating this lie. If your opposition to Labor's mandate is so weak that you must fabricate its foundation,whether to cast yourselves as victims or pretend that democracy is being undermined,you've lost before the debate even begins.

Frankly, this is the most absurd example of so-called "stealth" I've ever encountered. Labor clearly stated: "We will pursue this if elected."

And yet, your response? "OMG THEY'RE DOING THINGS BY STEALTH!!!" It’s laughable.

I can't fathom why you and your ilk continue to distort reality. You won the referendum; there will be no Voice. Take the win.

Stop twisting its outcome into something it wasn’t, simply because the debate is over, and you’ve lost your avenue to mask bigotry in a veneer of political discourse.

That’s the only plausible reason you keep clinging to these lies about the Voice and the referendum.

Repeating these falsehoods will not make them true. It might bolster your delusions within Telegram echo chambers, but it holds no sway in the real world.
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SadKangaroo
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #39 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:54am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 20th, 2024 at 9:37am:
Apartheid IS a direct assault on any democracy of equals.

That'll get their ulcers burning this morning.


That’s yet another falsehood you’ve propagated.

The Voice, along with the other elements of the Uluru Statement, could not possibly give rise to a situation resembling apartheid,
unless, of course, you choose to redefine the term as you have with "lawfare" and "the Voice" to fit your agenda.

I wonder, if it’s not too taxing on your blood pressure, whether you could elucidate what you mean by apartheid?

Or am I once again attempting to engage in dialogue with someone incapable of substantive discourse?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #40 - Oct 20th, 2024 at 10:04am
 
So YOUR Apartheid is not an assault on any genuine democracy of equals?

NOTED!

Grappler:-
"Apartheid IS a direct assault on any democracy of equals."



Sad Kangaroo:-
"That’s yet another falsehood you’ve propagated.

The Voice, along with the other elements of the Uluru Statement, could not possibly give rise to a situation resembling apartheid,
unless, of course, you choose to redefine the term as you have with "lawfare" and "the Voice" .



Take the day off - you're definitely not in the running today...................... did-ums - of COURSE separate laws, regulations, rights, dealing in the courts/legal system, level of representation to governments, separate treaties from all others, etc, etc, etc... are "not Apartheid".  Feel better now?

Girlie - they are not even Segregation = separate but equal - they are Absolute Apartheid.

Too much wine last night?
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SadKangaroo
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #41 - Oct 21st, 2024 at 8:06am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 20th, 2024 at 10:04am:
So YOUR Apartheid is not an assault on any genuine democracy of equals?

NOTED!


For that to be true, you'd have to rewrite the very definition of Apartheid to shoehorn it into this situation and "The Voice."

Thanks for confirming my suspicion that you've resorted to a textbook Grap manoeuvre, twisting terms to fit your narrative, much like you've done with "Lawfare" and "The Voice."

As they say, duly NOTED!

Many in the 'No' camp have pulled the same stunt, desperately grasping at an inflammatory concept to stoke outrage. It’s a predictable tactic when genuine arguments are lacking.

But the Voice to Parliament proposal was not an example of apartheid. The proposal aimed to establish an advisory body for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples to give them a formal voice in the legislative process.

This initiative was designed to ensure Indigenous Australians had a say in policies affecting them, addressing historical inequalities and marginalisation.

Apartheid refers to a system of institutionalised racial segregation and discrimination, as seen in South Africa between 1948 and 1994, where laws explicitly segregated racial groups and systematically oppressed non-white citizens.

The Voice, by contrast, was intended to promote inclusivity and address the historical exclusion of Indigenous people from the decision-making processes of the Australian government.

The claim was also examined in great detail,

Quote:
Claim: The Indigenous Voice to Parliament will create apartheid in Australia.

The Verdic: False. There is no evidence that the Voice to Parliament proposes to establish systematic oppression over Indigenous or non-Indigenous Australians. The Voice would be an advisory body, able to provide advice to the government on matters relating to Indigenous Australians.

You can read more about it here.


I'll do you a favour and not post anything more than the summary to make it easier for you to edit out when you reply, which appears to be your favoured method of evading the actual discussion at hand.

A convenient way to dodge engagement when things get too uncomfortable, isn't it?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #42 - Oct 21st, 2024 at 11:28am
 
You should be an NRL fullback with a sidestep like that!

Try again.  You've wasted enough time pretending to be a willy-willy spinning around on sixpence.  Time to advance your 'thinking' to incorporate reality.

Hint for today:-  try looking at the distinction between a 'definition' and a 'component result' = 'actual outcome'.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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SadKangaroo
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #43 - Oct 21st, 2024 at 11:46am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 21st, 2024 at 11:28am:
Hint for today:-  try looking at the distinction between a 'definition' and a 'component result' = 'actual outcome'.

Even if one were to stretch the argument, this still isn’t apartheid.

What you’re doing is deliberately misrepresenting the situation, weaponising the term to paint your opponents as the “racists.”

It’s a transparent attempt to deflect from the accountability you so desperately wish to avoid for your own rhetoric, a rhetoric that, if scrutinised, would rightly have you wearing that label.

The added advantage of this manoeuvre is that it allows you to once again position yourself as the victim.

Those who supported the Voice, advocating for greater self-determination for Indigenous Australians, did so with the genuine intention of uplifting their communities.

The status quo has failed.

The Voice and the remaining components of the Uluru Statement were crafted by Indigenous leaders and elders as a thoughtful framework to address longstanding issues, to right some of the wrongs, and to provide a pathway forward for these communities.

That is far from apartheid.

Now let’s juxtapose that with your own disturbing proposals, segregation, imprisonment in hermetically sealed domes where people could pay to hunt them down, or your fantasies of an alternate reality where the British had "finished them off" during colonisation. You’ve gone as far as labelling any effort to benefit Indigenous Australians, public or private, as "Aboriginal supremacism."

You’re not just running from your past; you’re refusing to be held accountable for it. You feign concern for these communities, when it’s abundantly clear that your preference is for their erasure.

So, is it really surprising that you’ve twisted the definition of "apartheid" to suit your agenda? Hardly.

You’ve managed quite the rhetorical sidestep here, so much so that you’re making Benji Marshall in his Tigers prime look pedestrian.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Voice! The Voice anniversary!
Reply #44 - Oct 21st, 2024 at 11:53am
 
Still haven't got it - well - let's try 'anticipated/planned consequences'.  Does that help your thinking?

What is your definition of 'reconciliation'?  It's a simple question - you keep evading it.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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