Australian Politics Forum - Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan

lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17621 Gender:	Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan Reply #90 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 3:09pm Lobo wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 3:05pm: Let's face it, nobody requests any research without hoping to get the result they want. But did they get the results they requested?
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Daves2017

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #91 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 7:30pm

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:51pm:

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 10:57am:

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Quote:

I’m doubtful that any intervention by ourselves is going to change that and could possibly make it worse.

Is there any thought behind this? If so, what is it?

I believe human history is littered with examples of humans believing they were helping the environment and unfortunately the exactly opposite was the result.

For all our technology and engineering expertise and good intentions I’m cautious of backing only one path forward.

Do you think that burning up all the underground carbon deposits we can find is not an intervention in the global climate, but refraining from doing so is an intervention?

I quite honestly believe that Australia contribution to world is so small to be irrelevant.

For all the fist pumping we are a isolated country with a very small population and economy.

In world terms if they blink Australia wouldn’t be on the map

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Thomas A. Edison said as early as in 1931, “I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”

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Daves2017

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #92 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 7:44pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:11pm:

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 24^th, 2024 at 8:24pm:

“The total value of Australia's energy exports in the 2019-2020 financial year was $115.5 billion.”

“https://taxpolicy.crawford.anu.edu.au ›

So to achieve net zero Australia will not only fund Chinese made windmills but are certain to lose 115.5 million dollars in revenue by closing our mines and cutting off our export market?

Well, with subsidies we could build our own windmills and PVs; but why would we waste Oz resources in a competition with China's productive capacity (ie when the Chinese can provide them much more efficiently, due to advantages of scale in manufacturing)?

So the question is: how to replace the lost export income from coal and gas; note: NOT from closing iron ore mines, the largest earner for Oz.

As for exports funding Oz schools, hospitals, polce, etc, (apoint you address below in regard to balanced budgets) , Oz has all the resources needed to build and service all those necesaary public services, so the OZ government can fund all thise things without relying on export income, by deficit spening, given that the resulting Oz government debt will be owed to itself...

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We need to have a adult conversation.

Yes..the problem is the adults having the conversation....

Quote:

I see we have only three options if Albo survive the next election-

Rise taxes.

Decrease services ( we can balance the budget if we do away with police, schools, hospitals.)

Or a combination of both.

Yes, and what's wrong with raising taxes on wealthy individuals and corporations, and stopping insane subsidies for the fossil industry?

But don't worry, Albo is too timid to raise taxes - or rather, ANY government with the balls to raise taxes - even on the wealthy and corporations, all of whom squeal like slaugtered pigs at the mention of taxes - won't get elected because we are all self-interested, rather than thinking about the common welfare.

But re your mainstream balanced government budget' orthodoxy:

Rush Limbaugh (!) said : "Everyone knows balanced government budgets are nonsense..."

And our own Alan Kohler agrees (google it).

You of course think the constraint on your own household budget apply to the currency-issuing government's budget, it's time to educate yourself.

Quote:

Consider, what could possibly go wrong-

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-61028138.amp

Sri Lanka borrowed money in foreign currencies which Sri Lankan banks can't create; when terms of trade turn against a country which has debt denominated in foreign currencies, the result is a debt-servicing disaster.

I’m unsure of some of your assumptions.
Last I heard Australia is three trillion dollars in debt due to lnp mismanagement and labor is working hard and delivering surplus in budget to push back.
Losing Royalties will leave a massive hole in the budget.

I’m also NOT in favour of any tax increase wealthy or not.

By all means go after corporations not paying tax ( hello google) but the fact that someone is gifted, works hard, had a lucky break in life doesn’t make them fair game to pay more for all of Australians woes!

I’m firmly in the middle income bracket so it’s no skin off my nose but the saying “ a fair go “ should work both ways.

Just because someone is achieving success shouldn’t mean they are held responsible for political parties failure to plan for the future nor should we expect they should pay for it!

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Thomas A. Edison said as early as in 1931, “I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18476 Gender:	Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan Reply #93 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 7:50pm Bowen hasn't been honest on the cost of this renewable rubbish. What do we use when there isn't enough wind on a cloudy day?
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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18476 Gender:	Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan Reply #94 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 7:51pm Why are my electricity bills going up these assclowns said we would have cheaper electricity?
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freediver

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #95 - Nov 28^th, 2024 at 12:35pm

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 7:30pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:51pm:

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 10:57am:

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Quote:

I’m doubtful that any intervention by ourselves is going to change that and could possibly make it worse.

Is there any thought behind this? If so, what is it?

I believe human history is littered with examples of humans believing they were helping the environment and unfortunately the exactly opposite was the result.

For all our technology and engineering expertise and good intentions I’m cautious of backing only one path forward.

Do you think that burning up all the underground carbon deposits we can find is not an intervention in the global climate, but refraining from doing so is an intervention?

I quite honestly believe that Australia contribution to world is so small to be irrelevant.

For all the fist pumping we are a isolated country with a very small population and economy.

In world terms if they blink Australia wouldn’t be on the map

Are you having difficulty understanding the question Dave?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Daves2017 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 990 Gender:	Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan Reply #96 - Nov 29^th, 2024 at 7:06pm Quite possible? What are you asking exactly that my answer hasn’t answered? I’m happy too expand if you give me the direction for what your seeking and after I bathe the cat.
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freediver

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #97 - Nov 30^th, 2024 at 11:07am

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2024 at 7:06pm:

Quite possible? What are you asking exactly that my answer hasn’t answered?

I’m happy too expand if you give me the direction for what your seeking and after I bathe the cat.

Do you think that burning up all the underground carbon deposits we can find is not an intervention in the global climate, but refraining from doing so is an intervention?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Frank

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #98 - Nov 30^th, 2024 at 11:38am

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 7:51pm:

Why are my electricity bills going up these assclowns said we would have cheaper electricity?

Assclownery is correct:

Chris Bowen’s energy plan threatens to leave us in the dark

Chris Uhlmann

The evidence was explicit in words of NSW Premier Chris Minns – who has a disarming habit of appearing competent and honest – when advising his people of the need for energy rationing.

“Solar production in the energy markets starts to come off at 3pm, at exactly the same time as people return home from work,” Minns said. “If you can not run your pool filter, not run your dishwasher, not run your washing machine, this afternoon between 3pm and 8pm, you’ll help the grid.”
...
As coal exits, the growing burden of turning wind and solar into a reliable electricity system will fall on a complex mix of batteries, hydro power and gas.

That’s a pretty shaky mix. Batteries and hydro are not energy sources, they are energy storers. If wind and solar don’t generate excess power, there will be no battery storage to call on. And grid-scale batteries are very expensive and their capacity is not deep enough to run cities for long.

As weather-dependent generation rises to become a dominant form of power production, the only source of reliable, dispatchable power will be gas. If we have gas.

This is the actual plan. The man behind the plan is Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen.

...

On Wednesday evening at 7pm in NSW 60 per cent of generation was coming from coal. Solar was contributing zero power and wind 9 per cent. In fact, across the past year, the Australian Energy Market Operator’s data dashboard records that brown and black coal supplied 64 per cent of the eastern grid’s electricity and gas 6 per cent. So 70 per cent fossil fuel then. Wind delivered 15 per cent of generation across the same time and grid-scale solar 8 per cent.

So coal is far and away the most reliable generator on the eastern national electricity market.
...
the Australian Bureau of Statistics’ latest consumer price index figures record “electricity prices fell 17.3 per cent in the September quarter and 15.8 per cent in the past 12 months”.

It then notes this was entirely due to massive federal and state government rebates doled out to protect consumers from the huge electricity price increases they can see written in their bills.

The ABS also notes: “Excluding the rebates, electricity prices would have risen by 0.7 per cent in the September 2024 quarter.”

To use an old saying, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. And then there is Chris Bowen.

In Bowen world, pouring taxpayers’ money into electricity consumers’ pockets to shield them from enormous price hikes is proof that his plan to build a wind and solar-dependent grid is cutting the price of power.

Hard to argue with that. Mostly because it is nonsensical.

There is one thing the minister said that did make sense: “Australians will judge us on what we have done.” It’s up there with: “If you don’t like our policies, don’t vote for us.”

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #99 - Nov 30^th, 2024 at 11:39am

freediver wrote on Nov 30^th, 2024 at 11:07am:

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2024 at 7:06pm:

Quite possible? What are you asking exactly that my answer hasn’t answered?

I’m happy too expand if you give me the direction for what your seeking and after I bathe the cat.

Do you think that burning up all the underground carbon deposits we can find is not an intervention in the global climate, but refraining from doing so is an intervention?

Ah - ha, FD - some typical confusion/obfuscation in your question there....

The first proposition is of course an "intervention" which is changing the climate, if AGW-CO2 is real.

But the second proposition is ALSO true; leaving fossils in the ground is an "intervention", to save the planet's climate, if AGW-CO2 is real.

...another naughty question from FD. Sad

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12940 Gender:	Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan Reply #100 - Nov 30^th, 2024 at 11:43am Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 7:51pm: Why are my electricity bills going up these assclowns said we would have cheaper electricity? Because they forgot to say it will be expensive to rollout the required new green technology, BEFORE prices can come down.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #101 - Nov 30^th, 2024 at 12:03pm

Frank wrote on Nov 30^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

As coal exits, the growing burden of turning wind and solar into a reliable electricity system will fall on a complex mix of batteries, hydro power and gas.

That’s a pretty shaky mix. Batteries and hydro are not energy sources, they are energy storers. If wind and solar don’t generate excess power, there will be no battery storage to call on. And grid-scale batteries are very expensive and their capacity is not deep enough to run cities for long.

All correct, except sufficient wind and solar WILL - in the aggregate - generate excess power, in a connected two-way grid storing and producing energy with solar and/or wind always capable of producing excess renewable power.

The question is: will nuclear be cheaper to guarantee against rare shortfalls, than building the excess renewable production and storage.

Albo shouldn't be getting bogged down by Dutton and his boot-licker Uhlmann, he should say "right, lets spend a few million examining the timeline and costs for building nuclear plants in Oz, and in the meantime speed up the rollout of green technology which will be required regardless of whether OZ can in fact benefit from a nulclear industry.

We can't keep burning coal and gas if the first big nuclear plant can't begin operating before 2040.

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Daves2017

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #102 - Nov 30^th, 2024 at 1:21pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2024 at 12:03pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 30^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

As coal exits, the growing burden of turning wind and solar into a reliable electricity system will fall on a complex mix of batteries, hydro power and gas.

That’s a pretty shaky mix. Batteries and hydro are not energy sources, they are energy storers. If wind and solar don’t generate excess power, there will be no battery storage to call on. And grid-scale batteries are very expensive and their capacity is not deep enough to run cities for long.

All correct, except sufficient wind and solar WILL - in the aggregate - generate excess power, in a connected two-way grid storing and producing energy with solar and/or wind always capable of producing excess renewable power.

The question is: will nuclear be cheaper to guarantee against rare shortfalls, than building the excess renewable production and storage.

Albo shouldn't be getting bogged down by Dutton and his boot-licker Uhlmann, he should say "right, lets spend a few million examining the timeline and costs for building nuclear plants in Oz, and in the meantime speed up the rollout of green technology which will be required regardless of whether OZ can in fact benefit from a nulclear industry.

We can't keep burning coal and gas if the first big nuclear plant can't begin operating before 2040.

Great post !
Why must green power and nuclear power be mutually exclusive?

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Thomas A. Edison said as early as in 1931, “I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”

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Daves2017

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #103 - Nov 30^th, 2024 at 1:30pm

I’m wondering if the clear complete failure of labor privatisation of electricity will ever be apologised for?

I’m wondering if once the trillions of OUR money is spent on these projects will they remain in public hands or sold off ( cheap, but we won’t be told as it’s confidential) to be managed by private companies?

Maybe even the same companies that have achieved huge profits over decades but done nothing to maintain their equipment?

Can we have this discussion?

Will our new future power grid remain in public hands or privatised again?

Shouldn’t we have a right to know BEFORE we spend trillions?

Sending a big shoutout to Kristina Marie Kerscher Keneally and Peter Douglas Beattie for failing not only their respective states but the nation so appallingly.

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Thomas A. Edison said as early as in 1931, “I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”

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Frank

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #104 - Nov 30^th, 2024 at 1:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2024 at 11:43am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 7:51pm:

Why are my electricity bills going up these assclowns said we would have cheaper electricity?

Because they forgot to say it will be expensive to rollout the required new green technology, BEFORE prices can come down.

Oh?! They forgot, did they? Cheesy

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