Australian Politics Forum - Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan

thegreatdivide

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #75 - Nov 26^th, 2024 at 12:10pm

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2024 at 2:24pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 20^th, 2024 at 12:01pm:

lee wrote on Nov 15^th, 2024 at 12:44pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 15^th, 2024 at 11:49am:

Why did the libs bother with a report when the outcome was always going to say that. Do the libs own shares in the company funneled taxpayer funds to prepare this report?

so you absolutely did not ask this question? Grin

what has my question got to do with armpits response you dopey twat. Cheesy

I’m only just reading this thread and thinking John has valid point (with out the pathetic insult).

Regardless I’m totally in support of nuclear and can’t quite understand why we can have nuclear submarines but not power generation?

I'm guessing you are asking these questions tongue in cheeck....

Ozzies are scared of nuclear energy, and won't even agree on where a nuclear waste dump should go.

Governments want to win the most votes, not govern sensibly.

Though the nuclear subs - a result of the paranoid "China threat" theory - will present a much smaller nucear waste problem, so the people will go along with them (waste from 8 small mobile nuclear-sub reactors).

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #76 - Nov 26^th, 2024 at 12:25pm

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 11:57am:

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 24^th, 2024 at 1:29pm:

I just want to make sure I understand exactly where Albo is taking us-

We as a nation transition to renewables.

We then cease mining and export of coal.

We lose a estimated 91 billion dollar industry and its payment of royalties.

NSW government alone gains 2.7 billion a year in royalties. Which disappear.

Ok, that’s what Albo is taking to the election!

Just a question, how do they plug the black hole in the budget that losing billions in royalties will create?

The job losses, what the mining industry is going too transition into hospitality?

So your argument is that climate change is a hoax and coal will continue to be exported at the current rate

That's their basic argument, despite the fact China is already reducing the proportion of coal in its energy mix ; indeed in nominal terms, coal's use in China will continue to grow until about 2030 (because China's energy use is growing so fast, as per capita income rises in China) - peak coal, after which it will fall to zero by 2060 (on current plans).

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.Australia cannot afford Peter Dutton and the Coal industry running the country???

Exactly. Dutton's nuclear plants certainly won't be useable by 2030, when China's use of coal wil begin to decline rapidly.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #77 - Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:11pm

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 24^th, 2024 at 8:24pm:

“The total value of Australia's energy exports in the 2019-2020 financial year was $115.5 billion.”

“https://taxpolicy.crawford.anu.edu.au ›

So to achieve net zero Australia will not only fund Chinese made windmills but are certain to lose 115.5 million dollars in revenue by closing our mines and cutting off our export market?

Well, with subsidies we could build our own windmills and PVs; but why would we waste Oz resources in a competition with China's productive capacity (ie when the Chinese can provide them much more efficiently, due to advantages of scale in manufacturing)?

So the question is: how to replace the lost export income from coal and gas; note: NOT from closing iron ore mines, the largest earner for Oz.

As for exports funding Oz schools, hospitals, polce, etc, (apoint you address below in regard to balanced budgets) , Oz has all the resources needed to build and service all those necesaary public services, so the OZ government can fund all thise things without relying on export income, by deficit spening, given that the resulting Oz government debt will be owed to itself...

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We need to have a adult conversation.

Yes..the problem is the adults having the conversation....

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I see we have only three options if Albo survive the next election-

Rise taxes.

Decrease services ( we can balance the budget if we do away with police, schools, hospitals.)

Or a combination of both.

Yes, and what's wrong with raising taxes on wealthy individuals and corporations, and stopping insane subsidies for the fossil industry?

But don't worry, Albo is too timid to raise taxes - or rather, ANY government with the balls to raise taxes - even on the wealthy and corporations, all of whom squeal like slaugtered pigs at the mention of taxes - won't get elected because we are all self-interested, rather than thinking about the common welfare.

But re your mainstream balanced government budget' orthodoxy:

Rush Limbaugh (!) said : "Everyone knows balanced government budgets are nonsense..."

And our own Alan Kohler agrees (google it).

You of course think the constraint on your own household budget apply to the currency-issuing government's budget, it's time to educate yourself.

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Consider, what could possibly go wrong-

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-61028138.amp

Sri Lanka borrowed money in foreign currencies which Sri Lankan banks can't create; when terms of trade turn against a country which has debt denominated in foreign currencies, the result is a debt-servicing disaster.

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« Last Edit: Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:41pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #78 - Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm

lee wrote on Nov 24^th, 2024 at 3:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 24^th, 2024 at 1:20pm:

Poor lee: "climate hoax" theorist extraordinaire.

And yet you haven't quantified where these renewables will come from. Nothing to do with climate. RENEWABLES. Grin

This sentence alone shows what we are dealing with in lee ...(low IQ?): "renewables, nothing to do with climate".....

And this little lee 'gem':

Quote:

And the Suncable haven't got the renewables.

The Sun Cable solar farm in the Northern Territory is 12,000 hectares:

The Sun Cable project is a large-scale solar farm and energy transmission system that will:
Generate renewable energy
Provide electricity to the Northern Territory and Singapore
Store electricity in a 40 gigawatt hour battery
Connect Australia to Singapore with a 4,200 kilometer undersea cable.

And China has already shown the way (though lee probably thinks Chinese engineering isn't applicable)

The world's largest solar power plant is located in China's Xinjiang province and is called the Xinjiang Midong solar project:
Location: The solar park is in a desert area near Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang.
Capacity: The plant has a capacity of 5 gigawatts (GW).
Size: The solar farm covers 200,000 hectares (494,000 acres).
Panels: The plant has more than 5.26 million panels.
Electricity generation: The plant can generate about 6.09 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity each year.
Powering: The plant could power the entire country of Luxembourg or Papua New Guinea for a year.
Investment: The project cost 15.45 billion Chinese yuan (about $2.13 billion).
Transmission lines: The plant has 129 miles of transmission lines.
Panels: The plant features monocrystalline bifacial double-glass PV panels.
World's largest solar plant goes online in China – pv ...
China is a world leader in renewable energy generation capacity, including solar power. The International Energy Agency (IEA) reported that China commissioned as much PV capacity in 2022 as the rest of the world combined.

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Household solar doesn't stabilise the grid.

See the latest 'Household solar woes' post.

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Now you are going to have UHV transmission to every hub

No, just to distant hubs, dummy.

China shows the way again:

https://www.tdworld.com/overhead-transmission/article/20972092/worlds-biggest-ul...

(Bloomberg) -- State Grid Corp. of China has started up the world’s longest and most-powerful ultra-high voltage power line from its far northwest to the heavily populated east.

poor lee, needs to employ some competent engineers...

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« Last Edit: Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:38pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #79 - Nov 26^th, 2024 at 2:06pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

This sentence alone shows what we are dealing with in lee ...(low IQ?): "renewables, nothing to do with climate".....

So tell us how renewables "heal" the climate. By how much does it need to "heal"? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

The Sun Cable solar farm in the Northern Territory is 12,000 hectares:

The Sun Cable project is a large-scale solar farm and energy transmission system that will:
Generate renewable energy
Provide electricity to the Northern Territory and Singapore
Store electricity in a 40 gigawatt hour battery
Connect Australia to Singapore with a 4,200 kilometer undersea cable.

Yep. And as of now they have NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA

A 40 GW hour battery? You have heard of the NT right? Monsoon season. Dark both early and late. Overcast with thunderstorms. Hail. And we know hoe solar panels like hail.

But you are probably talking about averages again. Wink

"Under the project, Sun Cable is building the 4,300 kilometer Australia-Asia Power Link that aims to deliver more than 20 gigawatts of electricity by 2030 from a solar farm in northern Australia to customers in Darwin and Singapore. "

https://www.forbes.com.au/news/innovation/mike-cannon-brookes-30-billion-solar-p...

NOW, as before, 20GW is NAMEPLATE capacity. So the discounted rate should be about 14 GW. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

See the latest 'Household solar woes' post.

I have and you talk schist as usual. Wink

Nothing there about a stabvle grid. You must have smudged glasses. Your reading betweeen the lines is once again a failure. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

No, just to distant hubs, dummy.

So rooftop solare is not a source of excess renewables? I guess then they won't be exporting to the grid. thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

This sentence alone shows what we are dealing with in lee ...(low IQ?): "renewables, nothing to do with climate".....

So tell us how renewables "heal" the climate. By how much does it need to "heal"? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

The Sun Cable solar farm in the Northern Territory is 12,000 hectares:

The Sun Cable project is a large-scale solar farm and energy transmission system that will:
Generate renewable energy
Provide electricity to the Northern Territory and Singapore
Store electricity in a 40 gigawatt hour battery
Connect Australia to Singapore with a 4,200 kilometer undersea cable.

Yep. And as of now they have NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA

A 40 GW hour battery? You have heard of the NT right? Monsoon season. Dark both early and late. Overcast with thunderstorms. Hail. And we know hoe solar panels like hail.

But you are probably talking about averages again. Wink

"Under the project, Sun Cable is building the 4,300 kilometer Australia-Asia Power Link that aims to deliver more than 20 gigawatts of electricity by 2030 from a solar farm in northern Australia to customers in Darwin and Singapore. "

https://www.forbes.com.au/news/innovation/mike-cannon-brookes-30-billion-solar-p...

NOW, as before, 20GW is NAMEPLATE capacity. So the discounted rate should be about 14 GW. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

See the latest 'Household solar woes' post.

I have and you talk schist as usual. Wink

Nothing there about a stable grid. You must have smudged glasses. Your reading betweeen the lines is once again a failure. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

This sentence alone shows what we are dealing with in lee ...(low IQ?): "renewables, nothing to do with climate".....

So tell us how renewables "heal" the climate. By how much does it need to "heal"? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

The Sun Cable solar farm in the Northern Territory is 12,000 hectares:

The Sun Cable project is a large-scale solar farm and energy transmission system that will:
Generate renewable energy
Provide electricity to the Northern Territory and Singapore
Store electricity in a 40 gigawatt hour battery
Connect Australia to Singapore with a 4,200 kilometer undersea cable.

Yep. And as of now they have NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA

A 40 GW hour battery? You have heard of the NT right? Monsoon season. Dark both early and late. Overcast with thunderstorms. Hail. And we know hoe solar panels like hail.

But you are probably talking about averages again. Wink

"Under the project, Sun Cable is building the 4,300 kilometer Australia-Asia Power Link that aims to deliver more than 20 gigawatts of electricity by 2030 from a solar farm in northern Australia to customers in Darwin and Singapore. "

https://www.forbes.com.au/news/innovation/mike-cannon-brookes-30-billion-solar-p...

NOW, as before, 20GW is NAMEPLATE capacity. So the discounted rate should be about 14 GW. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

See the latest 'Household solar woes' post.

I have and you talk schist as usual. Wink

Nothing there about a stable grid. You must have smudged glasses. Your reading betweeen the lines is once again a failure. Wink

tbc

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lee

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #80 - Nov 26^th, 2024 at 2:11pm

cont.
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

No, just to distant hubs, dummy.

You have to COLLECT all the "excess renewables". I guess that means you don't think rooftop solar will provide excess. So much for exporting energy to the grid. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

poor lee, needs to employ some competent engineers...

Nope, Conceptrs are not proof of concepts.

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." Richard Feynman.

And renewables haven't proved capable of maintaining a modern society. Wink

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #81 - Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm

lee wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 2:06pm:

Nothing there about a stabvle grid. You must have smudged glasses. Your reading betweeen the lines is once again a failure. Wink

""But aggregated across thousands of households, these technologies can enhance system reliability and security."

ie stability.

Poor lee: low IQ, and low comprehension, says it's impossible when the rest of the world is getting on with the job of acheiving net xero by mid-century.

And 3 desperate crippled-brain climate-denier posts, to try to refute what everyone else except AGW deniers know.

....3 desperate posts to reply to half a dozen points: me thinks I spy an obsessive compulsive personality disorder as well, on top of your low IQ, a tragic condition.

Quote:

A 40 GW hour battery? You have heard of the NT right? Monsoon season. Dark both early and late. Overcast with thunderstorms. Hail. And we know hoe solar panels like hail.

Er - the climate is different around Tennant Creek (one thousand kms below Darwin). And then there's wind to harvest if no sun. And UHV long distance transmission from drier, sunnier desert areas if necessary, as China is doing.

Quote:

Nothing there about a stable grid. You must have smudged glasses. Your reading betweeen the lines is once again

"But aggregated across thousands of households, these tchnologies can enhance system reliability and security."

Poor lee, limited comprehension skills further crippled by his denial of AGW-CO2 climate science.

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Daves2017

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #82 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 9:43am

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 11:57am:

So your argument is that climate change is a hoax and coal will continue to be exported at the current rate....As the world moves away from fossil fuel how do you expect Australia to maintain it's current levels of exports....The Coalition are taking more fossil fuels and no investment in renewable energy to the next election....Australia cannot afford Peter Dutton and the Coal industry running the country???

Huh

I don’t believe climate change is a hoax. The science is there, the history of the planet clearly shows the climate is constantly changing.

I’m doubtful that any intervention by ourselves is going to change that and could possibly make it worse.

We need a mix of energy sources but there is only two schools of opposing thought and that’s unfortunate.

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Thomas A. Edison said as early as in 1931, “I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49030 At my desk.	Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan Reply #83 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 9:53am Quote: I’m doubtful that any intervention by ourselves is going to change that and could possibly make it worse. Is there any thought behind this? If so, what is it?
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Daves2017

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #84 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 10:57am

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Quote:

I’m doubtful that any intervention by ourselves is going to change that and could possibly make it worse.

Is there any thought behind this? If so, what is it?

I believe human history is littered with examples of humans believing they were helping the environment and unfortunately the exactly opposite was the result.

For all our technology and engineering expertise and good intentions I’m cautious of backing only one path forward.

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Thomas A. Edison said as early as in 1931, “I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”

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lee

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #85 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 12:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

""But aggregated across thousands of households, these technologies can enhance system reliability and security."

ie stability.

So now we know you don't know what stability of supply is. Thanks for that. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

Poor lee: low IQ, and low comprehension, says it's impossible when the rest of the world is getting on with the job of acheiving net xero by mid-century.

Promises are like kisses they disappear into the wind. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

And 3 desperate crippled-brain climate-denier posts, to try to refute what everyone else except AGW deniers know.

....3 desperate posts to reply to half a dozen points: me thinks I spy an obsessive compulsive personality disorder as well, on top of your low IQ, a tragic condition.

And you haven't refuted any of them. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

Er - the climate is different around Tennant Creek (one thousand kms below Darwin).

And further away fro Garwin and Singapore. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

And then there's wind to harvest if no sun.

But we have already discussed solar AND wind droughts. No wind, No Sun, NO renewables. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

And UHV long distance transmission from drier, sunnier desert areas if necessary, as China is doing.

Then let China do it. Don't give any subsidies to Cannon-Brooke etc. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

"But aggregated across thousands of households, these tchnologies can enhance system reliability and security."

Yes we established you don't understand stability of the power grid. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

Poor lee, limited comprehension skills further crippled by his denial of AGW-CO2 climate science.

You still haven't explained, even though requested many times, exactly what climate scientists agree on. What they don't agree on and on what they admit they don't know.

Give real world examples, not climate models which are not proof of anything. Wink

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #86 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:10pm

lee wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 12:54pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2024 at 9:48pm:

""But aggregated across thousands of households, these technologies can enhance system reliability and security."

ie stability.

So now we know you don't know what stability of supply is. Thanks for that. Wink

Stability of the GRID, dummy.

Quote:

Promises are like kisses they disappear into the wind. Wink

China just connected the world's biggest solar and wind farm, located in the Gobi desert, to the eastern seaboard manusfacturing centres, using UHV techonlogy.

Not a promise, but delivered.

Quote:

And further away fro Garwin and Singapore. Roll Eyes

The issue is the hours of sunshine in the Tennant Creek region, not Darwin or Singapore, dummy.

Quote:

But we have already discussed solar AND wind droughts. No wind, No Sun, NO renewables. Roll Eyes

Not all and everywhere at the same time, dummy.

Quote:

Then let China do it. Don't give any subsidies to Cannon-Brooke etc. Roll Eyes

Why not? We can, and should, build 10 Suncables in Oz, to exit the the filthy fossil industry.

I wouldn't mind a decent nuclear plant near Roxby Downs (with the world's largest uranium deposit) , to 'hit the final nail in the coffin' of filthy fossils including gas, if nuclear proved cheaper to ensure supply in all ie, including infrequent scenarious - like your 'sun and wind droughts' everywhere at the same time - than by building overcapaity in renewables storage.

Quote:

You still haven't explained, even though requested many times, exactly what climate scientists agree on. What they don't agree on and on what they admit they don't know.

Give real world examples, not climate models which are not proof of anything. Wink

Are you Senator Roberts by any chance?

Even Dutton reckons we should replace coal with nuclear, a very expensive exercise in itself, to be funded by...you guessed it, the public sector.

I wonder why?

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« Last Edit: Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:16pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #87 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:51pm

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 10:57am:

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

Quote:

I’m doubtful that any intervention by ourselves is going to change that and could possibly make it worse.

Is there any thought behind this? If so, what is it?

I believe human history is littered with examples of humans believing they were helping the environment and unfortunately the exactly opposite was the result.

For all our technology and engineering expertise and good intentions I’m cautious of backing only one path forward.

Do you think that burning up all the underground carbon deposits we can find is not an intervention in the global climate, but refraining from doing so is an intervention?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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lee

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Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan
Reply #88 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 3:02pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

Stability of the GRID, dummy.

Stability of supply is stability of the grid. If you don't have stability of supply then the grid is NOT stable. But spoken like a true believer. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

China just connected the world's biggest solar and wind farm, located in the Gobi desert, to the eastern seaboard manusfacturing centres, using UHV techonlogy.

And what? It is going to supply the whole of China? I guess they don't need those new coal facilities or the new nuclear ones either. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

The issue is the hours of sunshine in the Tennant Creek region, not Darwin or Singapore, dummy.

The issue is connectivity. If you don't have connectivity you have an islanded project. You know like the islanded Coal plant that the greenies insist is coming. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

Not all and everywhere at the same time, dummy.

To have them all everywhere you need the renewables eveywhere. Trailer mounted? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

Why not? We can, and should, build 10 Suncables in Oz, to exit the the filthy fossil industry.

Oh 10 Suncables at $18 billion or was that $30 billion a pop? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

Are you Senator Roberts by any chance?

No, but you sound like Bowen. Grin

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Lobo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7407 Sydney Gender:	Re: Labors half trillion dollar lie on renewables plan Reply #89 - Nov 27^th, 2024 at 3:05pm "It was prepared at the request of the Coalition,..." And they got exactly the result they wanted. Let's face it, nobody requests any research without hoping to get the result they want. Did the Coalition also set the ToR???
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