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Self Defence, (Read 3150 times)
Baronvonrort
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #90 - Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:14pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 6:53pm:
Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 6:50pm:
Bobby,
‘’ To be honest I don't know much about guns.
I do know that after Port Arthur it's almost impossible to get one.
I think if you're a member of a shooting club you can have one stored there for you
to use at only their firing range and left there afterwards in a safe.

When I was a kid I used to shoot small bore 0.22 at a club and
all the rifles were stored there.
I got bored with it after about 5 times going there and never went back’’

Suggest that you start learning.
Since PA the number of pistols in civilian hands has skyrocketed likewise the number of ranges.
People keep their pistols and long arms at home where they have access at all times They must be kept under lock and key.
Firearms, at least in NSW are rarely stored at the range, most country ranges are by their very location, unsecure places and rarely visited on weekdays.

After the post PA ‘’buyback’’ the number of rifles and shotguns owned by civilians dropped but tne number now is quite high.

‘’ Australia: More Guns Now Than Before Port Arthur’’’
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australia-more-guns-now-than-before-port-...



I didn't know that.

https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australia-more-guns-now-than-before-port-...


Gunpolicy.org is a suspect source Bobby.

We have doubled the number of guns and license holders since 1996 while gun crimes have decreased.
It debunks the bullshit more guns = more deaths.

Page 63 shows nearly 2 million firearm license holders with 5.8 million registered guns in 2016
A far more credible source than your bullshit here-
https://www.acic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-08/crimtrac_ar_2015-16_final_07...

With gun crimes in the news-
When it’s ‘targeted’ and the victim was ‘known to Police’ that’s code for ‘gun laws don’t magically stop crimes’ these people had illegal guns.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #91 - Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm
 
...
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Bobby.
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #92 - Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm
 
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #93 - Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:32pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm:
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.


That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns
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Bobby.
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #94 - Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:39pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm:
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.


That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns



Well - I mean legal guns not guns imported by smugglers for drug gangs.
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Sir Eoin O Fada
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #95 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 12:30pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:39pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm:
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.


That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns



Well - I mean legal guns not guns imported by smugglers for drug gangs.

Have you missed all the news items over the last few years about crims making guns for crims?
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Self defence is a right.
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #96 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 1:34pm
 
Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 5:55pm:
The crocodile has a right to eat, if someone is foolish enough to go into the crocodile’s hunting area then they forfeit their right to life, the life is extinguished


Ok, the example was meant to show that "rights" don't exist in the animal kingdom, only the struggle to survive exists. 

So why do "rights"  exist in the human 'kingdom' which evolved from the animal kingdom?

My contention is "rights" are inventions of the human cerebral cortex, seat of self awareness, and awareness of (possible) behaviours of others, along with  the ability to reason, capacities which aren't available in the animal kingdom, out of which we evolved.

Hence humans are 'aware' of and attracted to concepts such as morality, justice and fairness, since such concepts are advantageous to the individual in a society of other self-interested individuals whose personal desires and interests may not necessarily coincide.

Concepts of morality etc which humans have  attempted to  codify via  "rights" which will support the desire for life and liberty and  (...insert what other words you would like to mention as "rights") are the important factor here.

So we need to define morality, justice and fairness.

eg the UN UDHR defines a "right" to above poverty employment with reasonable conditions  re personal safety etc. (article 23).

But mainstream neoliberal economics (associated with obsolete, neoclassical 'scarcity' dogma, aka "the dismal science" for good reason...) requires a pool of unemployed workers, to manage inflation in the economy (aka the NAIRU). 

Not moral, just or fair....

So if economic injustice is a direct cause of home invasion or other crime,  what is the balance of guilt between the home invader and the confortable householder. And the level of force which is employed in "self-defence"?

(eg, the policeman  who tazered the old demented woman brandishing a knife: he didn't expect her to fall over and crack her head; where does the blame for her death lie? The police commisioner sacked him because...he should have patiently worked out some other course of action, and hence a jury convicted him of manslaughter.)      

Quote:
but the Right to Life still exists likewise if someone unlawfully attacks me with the intention of taking my life then my rights override his and he dies.


And hopefully a jury agrees with you....

Quote:
I suggest that you read the Second Amendment and apply basic English meanings to the words and use reason not emotion in deciding their meaning.


The 2nd amendment is an anachronistic piece of garbage; military-grade weapons should be confined to the military.

Quote:
I reiterate, the Second Amendment neither confers nor establishes any rights, therefore the ‘ . . right of the people to keep and bear arms. . . ‘’ , which is only associated with it shall in no way be affected


So the 2nd permits you to use military grade weapons for  'self-defence'.  See the problem?



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thegreatdivide
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #97 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 2:10pm
 
Moving aside from considerations of an individual's  "right" to self-defence (and how to exercise it):

Today, Amnesty International has joined a large number of other agencies concerned with international law, and released its report condemning  Israel for genocide.

One point re judging genocide is the matter of "intent", but it's notoriously difficult to prove  because the nation committing the genocide can claim it is acting in self-defence. 

Yet the genocide is happenng in plain sight for all the world to see: c. 20,000 Gazan women and children have been slaugtered by IDF bombs, with no end in sight other than total annihilation of Gazans since Hamas knows the current Israeli leadership won't accept a Palestinian state.

So wars of "self defence" between nations are an insanity, and total repudiation of "the right to life".

And the UN will be forced to watch, powerless and amazed at the inability of international law to establish peace, as the genocide continues until Israel decides  the IDF has eliminated all Hamas operatives.

At least the UNGA has acknowledged (157 for, 8 against)  it's time to bulldoze the illegal settlers out of the WB and establish a Palestinian state as per UN res 181, adopted but not implemented all those years ago, because the UNSC - crippled by the veto -  wasn't able  to keep the hot-heads on both sides apart.   You can't negotiate with extremist, ancient, "Promised Land" mythology....and extremists who are outraged by that mythlogy.  


   
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« Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2024 at 2:25pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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philperth2010
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #98 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 2:52pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm:
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.


That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns


Gun deaths have declined since Port Arthur!!!

Quote:
Gun deaths

The annual rate of total gun deaths in Australia fell from 2.9 per 100,000 in 1996 to just 0.88 per 100,000 in 2018.

Our gun death rate is 12 times less than the US of about 10.6 per 100,000 people.


https://www.gunsafetyalliance.org.au/the-stats/

We don't want to end up like America!!!

Quote:
Gun-related deaths are a fixture in American life and there were 12.09 deaths per 100,000 people, according to 2019 data from gunpolicy.org. For Australia, the rate was 0.90 per 100,000 people showing the significant contrast between the two countries. 

In a disturbing US trend, firearms killed more children and adolescents in 2020 than car accidents, the previous leading cause of death for young people, according to the Washington Post.


https://www.ussc.edu.au/by-the-numbers-stark-contrast-in-australian-us-gun-death...

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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Bobby.
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #99 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 3:25pm
 
Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 5th, 2024 at 12:30pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:39pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm:
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.


That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns



Well - I mean legal guns not guns imported by smugglers for drug gangs.

Have you missed all the news items over the last few years about crims making guns for crims?



I saw some 3D printed guns on TV a few times.

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Baronvonrort
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #100 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 4:43pm
 
philperth2010 wrote on Dec 5th, 2024 at 2:52pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm:
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.


That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns


Gun deaths have declined since Port Arthur!!!

Quote:
Gun deaths

The annual rate of total gun deaths in Australia fell from 2.9 per 100,000 in 1996 to just 0.88 per 100,000 in 2018.

Our gun death rate is 12 times less than the US of about 10.6 per 100,000 people.


https://www.gunsafetyalliance.org.au/the-stats/

We don't want to end up like America!!!



In 1980 our gun death rate was 4.9 per 100K
in 1995 our gun death rate was 2.6 per 100K

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/productsbyCatalogue/9C85BD1298C075EACA2...

What caused the reduction in gun deaths from 1980-1995 when semi auto rifles and pump action shotguns could be used for self defence?

Our gun death rate has always been around 10-12x lower than the US even when we allowed guns for self defence, we were never like America ya bedwetting dickhead.


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philperth2010
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #101 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 5:19pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 5th, 2024 at 4:43pm:
philperth2010 wrote on Dec 5th, 2024 at 2:52pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm:
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.


That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns


Gun deaths have declined since Port Arthur!!!

Quote:
Gun deaths

The annual rate of total gun deaths in Australia fell from 2.9 per 100,000 in 1996 to just 0.88 per 100,000 in 2018.

Our gun death rate is 12 times less than the US of about 10.6 per 100,000 people.


https://www.gunsafetyalliance.org.au/the-stats/

We don't want to end up like America!!!



In 1980 our gun death rate was 4.9 per 100K
in 1995 our gun death rate was 2.6 per 100K

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/productsbyCatalogue/9C85BD1298C075EACA2...

What caused the reduction in gun deaths from 1980-1995 when semi auto rifles and pump action shotguns could be used for self defence?

Our gun death rate has always been around 10-12x lower than the US even when we allowed guns for self defence, we were never like America ya bedwetting dickhead.




Your bullshit stats only go to 1995 dickhead....Our gun death rate has declined since Port Arthur and gun reforms were introduced not just one punative measure....There has been very few home invasions were someone was killed by a gun and the reduction must take into consideration every measure used to reduce gun violence....Cherry picking bullshit proves nothing!!!

Quote:
By the numbers | Stark contrast in Australian, US gun deaths

Gun-related deaths are a fixture in American life and there were 12.09 deaths per 100,000 people, according to 2019 data from gunpolicy.org. For Australia, the rate was 0.90 per 100,000 people showing the significant contrast between the two countries. 

In a disturbing US trend, firearms killed more children and adolescents in 2020 than car accidents, the previous leading cause of death for young people, according to the Washington Post.


Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

https://www.ussc.edu.au/by-the-numbers-stark-contrast-in-australian-us-gun-death...

https://www.gunsafetyalliance.org.au/the-stats/
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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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Sir Eoin O Fada
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #102 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 9:13pm
 
‘’ So the 2nd permits you to use military grade weapons for  'self-defence'.  See the problem?’’

No, because military grade weapons are generally inferior and much less powerful than civilian firearms.
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Self defence is a right.
 
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #103 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 10:53pm
 
philperth2010 wrote on Dec 5th, 2024 at 5:19pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 5th, 2024 at 4:43pm:
philperth2010 wrote on Dec 5th, 2024 at 2:52pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 4th, 2024 at 10:31pm:
Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.


That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns


Gun deaths have declined since Port Arthur!!!

Quote:
Gun deaths

The annual rate of total gun deaths in Australia fell from 2.9 per 100,000 in 1996 to just 0.88 per 100,000 in 2018.

Our gun death rate is 12 times less than the US of about 10.6 per 100,000 people.


https://www.gunsafetyalliance.org.au/the-stats/

We don't want to end up like America!!!



In 1980 our gun death rate was 4.9 per 100K
in 1995 our gun death rate was 2.6 per 100K

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/productsbyCatalogue/9C85BD1298C075EACA2...

What caused the reduction in gun deaths from 1980-1995 when semi auto rifles and pump action shotguns could be used for self defence?

Our gun death rate has always been around 10-12x lower than the US even when we allowed guns for self defence, we were never like America ya bedwetting dickhead.




Your bullshit stats only go to 1995 dickhead....Our gun death rate has declined since Port Arthur and gun reforms were introduced not just one punative measure....There has been very few home invasions were someone was killed by a gun and the reduction must take into consideration every measure used to reduce gun violence....Cherry picking bullshit proves nothing!!!

Quote:
By the numbers | Stark contrast in Australian, US gun deaths

Gun-related deaths are a fixture in American life and there were 12.09 deaths per 100,000 people, according to 2019 data from gunpolicy.org. For Australia, the rate was 0.90 per 100,000 people showing the significant contrast between the two countries. 

In a disturbing US trend, firearms killed more children and adolescents in 2020 than car accidents, the previous leading cause of death for young people, according to the Washington Post.[/url]


What caused the pre existing decline in firearm deaths before our 1996 gun laws ya dopey dickhead?

Australian Bureau of Statistics aren't bullshit this is for the 15 years before our 1996 laws.

As usual you deflect to the US.

In 1995 when semi auto rifles and pump action shotguns were allowed for self defence our firearm homicide rate was  0.3 per 100k.
What was this rate in the US 1995?
Quote:
There were 11,101 firearm homicides in 2011, down by 39% from a high of 18,253 in 1993 (figure 1). The majority of the decline in firearm-related homicides occurred between 1993 and 1998. Since 1999, the number of firearm homicides increased from 10,828 to 12,791 in 2006 before declining to 11,101 in 2011.

In 2010, the rate of firearm homicide for males was 6.2 per
100,000, compared to 1.1 for females (figure 3). Firearm
homicide for males declined by 49% (from 12.0 per 100,000
males in 1993 to 6.2 in 2010), compared to a 51% decline
for females (from 2.3 per 100,000 females in 1993 to 1.1
in 2010). The majority of the decline for both males and
females occurred in the first part of the period (1993 to
2000).

Race/Hispanic origin
In 2010, the rate of firearm homicide for blacks was 14.6
per 100,000, compared to 1.9 for whites, 2.7 for American
Indians and Alaska Natives, and 1.0 for Asians and Pacific
Islanders (figure 5). From 1993 to 2010, the rate of firearm
homicides for blacks declined by 51%, down from 30.1 per
100,000 blacks, compared to a 48% decline for whites and a
43% decline for American Indians and Alaska Natives


https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf


We have never been like America so comparing us to them is bedwetter bullshit.  Roll Eyes

What caused our pre existing decline or do you prefer to cherry pick data to justify gun grabbing? Roll Eyes

Are your crappy sources linked to Simon Chapman?



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Baronvonrort
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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #104 - Dec 5th, 2024 at 11:17pm
 
Data from Australian Institute of Criminology

Under our proprtional self defence laws perhaps you need to grab a knife of similar size if attacked by someone with a knife.
None of Paul Hogan that's not a knife and grabbing something bigger will be allowed for self defence.

Where is this so called rapid decrease in firearm homicides after 1996 laws ?
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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