Australian Politics Forum

Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 41839	Re: Self Defence, Reply #120 - Dec 6^th, 2024 at 7:22pm
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Frank

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #121 - Dec 6^th, 2024 at 9:45pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 5:40pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 5:09pm:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img641/9394/yawnr.gif

.Good to see you, Brian, I seem to remember that when you were asked to define and explain the Second Amendment.you ran and hid and we never had the help of your vast knowledge and experience.

Perhaps you or your acolyte will refute this

‘’ Statistics and gun laws It may come as a surprise to Simon to Chapman (Letters, October 31) but, like him, I too strongly supported
the introduction of tougher gun laws after the Port Arthur massacre. The fact is, however, that the introduction of those laws did not result in any acceleration of the downward trend in gun homicide. They may have reduced the risk of mass shootings but we cannot be sure because
no one has done the rigorous statistical work required to verify this possibility. It is always unpleasant to acknowledge facts that are inconsistent with your own point of view. But I
thought that was what distinguished science from popular prejudice.
Dr Don Weatherburn NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, Sydney
Source: [url]http://www.smh.com.au/news/letters/the-terrorism-debate-balance-v-the-
bogyman/2005/10/31/1130720479201.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap[/url]
After all, what would he know?

Bbwian is a huge vagina.
He is showing it off with every yawn.

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 46223 Gender:	Re: Self Defence, Reply #122 - Dec 6^th, 2024 at 9:48pm Brian Ross wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 8:31pm: https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img641/9394/yawnr.gif Oh, look, Bbwian's huge vagina AGAIN!! And the SMELL!! Close that hole!
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 41839	Re: Self Defence, Reply #123 - Dec 6^th, 2024 at 10:25pm
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #124 - Dec 6^th, 2024 at 10:47pm

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 11:27am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 5^th, 2024 at 10:53pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 5^th, 2024 at 5:19pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 5^th, 2024 at 4:43pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 5^th, 2024 at 2:52pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 10:32pm:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 10:31pm:

Hi Baron,
I can only say that the Aussie laws must have ensured that
only responsible people have guns.

That's bullshit Bobby.

Criminals don't have any trouble getting guns lots of Meth addicts running around with guns

Gun deaths have declined since Port Arthur!!!

Quote:

Gun deaths

The annual rate of total gun deaths in Australia fell from 2.9 per 100,000 in 1996 to just 0.88 per 100,000 in 2018.

Our gun death rate is 12 times less than the US of about 10.6 per 100,000 people.

https://www.gunsafetyalliance.org.au/the-stats/

We don't want to end up like America!!!

In 1980 our gun death rate was 4.9 per 100K
in 1995 our gun death rate was 2.6 per 100K

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/productsbyCatalogue/9C85BD1298C075EACA2...

What caused the reduction in gun deaths from 1980-1995 when semi auto rifles and pump action shotguns could be used for self defence?

Our gun death rate has always been around 10-12x lower than the US even when we allowed guns for self defence, we were never like America ya bedwetting dickhead.

Your bullshit stats only go to 1995 dickhead....Our gun death rate has declined since Port Arthur and gun reforms were introduced not just one punative measure....There has been very few home invasions were someone was killed by a gun and the reduction must take into consideration every measure used to reduce gun violence....Cherry picking bullshit proves nothing!!!

Quote:

By the numbers | Stark contrast in Australian, US gun deaths

Gun-related deaths are a fixture in American life and there were 12.09 deaths per 100,000 people, according to 2019 data from gunpolicy.org. For Australia, the rate was 0.90 per 100,000 people showing the significant contrast between the two countries.

In a disturbing US trend, firearms killed more children and adolescents in 2020 than car accidents, the previous leading cause of death for young people, according to the Washington Post.[/url]

What caused the pre existing decline in firearm deaths before our 1996 gun laws ya dopey dickhead?

Australian Bureau of Statistics aren't bullshit this is for the 15 years before our 1996 laws.

As usual you deflect to the US.

In 1995 when semi auto rifles and pump action shotguns were allowed for self defence our firearm homicide rate was 0.3 per 100k.
What was this rate in the US 1995?
Quote:

There were 11,101 firearm homicides in 2011, down by 39% from a high of 18,253 in 1993 (figure 1). The majority of the decline in firearm-related homicides occurred between 1993 and 1998. Since 1999, the number of firearm homicides increased from 10,828 to 12,791 in 2006 before declining to 11,101 in 2011.

In 2010, the rate of firearm homicide for males was 6.2 per
100,000, compared to 1.1 for females (figure 3). Firearm
homicide for males declined by 49% (from 12.0 per 100,000
males in 1993 to 6.2 in 2010), compared to a 51% decline
for females (from 2.3 per 100,000 females in 1993 to 1.1
in 2010). The majority of the decline for both males and
females occurred in the first part of the period (1993 to
2000).

Race/Hispanic origin
In 2010, the rate of firearm homicide for blacks was 14.6
per 100,000, compared to 1.9 for whites, 2.7 for American
Indians and Alaska Natives, and 1.0 for Asians and Pacific
Islanders (figure 5). From 1993 to 2010, the rate of firearm
homicides for blacks declined by 51%, down from 30.1 per
100,000 blacks, compared to a 48% decline for whites and a
43% decline for American Indians and Alaska Natives

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

We have never been like America so comparing us to them is bedwetter bullshit. Roll Eyes

What caused our pre existing decline or do you prefer to cherry pick data to justify gun grabbing? Roll Eyes

Are your crappy sources linked to Simon Chapman?

Your bullshit stats only go to 1995 dickhead....20 years of missing data were the gun death rate has plumeted....Cherry picking bullshit stats that still show a decline in gun deaths....Dickhead!!!

You still haven't answered the question on what caused the drop in firearm deaths from 1980-1995, is that an inconvenient truth for you? Grin

To see the impact of gun laws you have to see where we were before them ya dopey dickhead.

There was a pre existing decline from 1980 to 1995 which ABS stats show.

Did you miss this bit which shows the gun homicides were also in decline in the US from 1993 to 2010 despite no tougher laws?
From 1993 to 2010, the rate of firearm
homicides for blacks declined by 51%, down from 30.1 per
100,000 blacks, compared to a 48% decline for whites and a
43% decline for American Indians and Alaska Natives

You're the one cherry picking stats which is common with gun grabbers.

This guy shreds your Simon Chapman sources

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #125 - Dec 6^th, 2024 at 11:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 11:22am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 5^th, 2024 at 11:17pm:

Data from Australian Institute of Criminology

Under our proprtional self defence laws perhaps you need to grab a knife of similar size if attacked by someone with a knife.
None of Paul Hogan that's not a knife and grabbing something bigger will be allowed for self defence.

Where is this so called rapid decrease in firearm homicides after 1996 laws ?

As per the graph: from c. 25% to c. 15%?

There is no rapid decrease after 1996 are you blind or stupid?

Quote:

Association Between Gun Law Reforms and Intentional Firearm Deaths in Australia, 1979-2013

Main Outcomes and Measures Changes in mass fatal shooting incidents (defined as ≥5 victims, not including the perpetrator) and in trends of rates of total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and suicides, and total homicides and suicides per 100 000 population.

Conclusions and Relevance

Following enactment of gun law reforms in Australia in 1996, there were no mass firearm killings through May 2016. There was a more rapid decline in firearm deaths between 1997 and 2013 compared with before 1997

but also a decline in total nonfirearm suicide and homicide deaths of a greater magnitude. Because of this, it is not possible to determine whether the change in firearm deaths can be attributed to the gun law reforms.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2530362

Gunpolicy.org defined mass shootings as ≥5 dead victims, not including the perpetrator for mass shootings in Australia they use any definition for mass shootings in the US to justify gun grabbing.

What do they mean by this did our gun laws also cause a reduction in non firearm homicides and suicides as well?

but also a decline in total nonfirearm suicide and homicide deaths of a greater magnitude. Because of this, it is not possible to determine whether the change in firearm deaths can be attributed to the gun law reforms.

The ban on semi autos did nothing to reduce firearm suicides there is no need for rapid fire when shooting yourself.
Bedwetting gun grabbers are too stupid to realise this.

One day people will wake up to Politicans using fear to sell their crap to the gullible from gun laws to save us to covid lockdowns and mandatory vax to save all of us from death.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #126 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 10:54am

Frank wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 2:36pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 28^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

Apr 11, 2024
https://www.9news.com.au/national/queensland-news-man-killed-one-injured-after-alleged-axe-attack-south-of-the-gold-coast/486b6c2d-37b1-4ec9-9014-845b276bb3e3

Quote:

Two masked men armed with an axe allegedly stormed an Oxford Street home in Kingscliff, south of Queensland's Gold Coast, about 8pm on Tuesday.
The home invaders confronted 66-year-old Alan Kerr and struck him with the axe multiple times, partially severing his hand, police said.

Quote:

"We have been informed that the occupant, in self defence and in an attempt to protect himself, has armed himself with a knife and struck the deceased to the chest," he said.
"We will be examining the circumstances surrounding the incident, in particular the conduct of the occupant if the conduct was necessary and proportionate to his safety."

Machete-wielding aboriginal home invader dies in hospital after alleged clash with homeowner

Police said Tyron Smith, 20, was attempting to break into the house in Boulder, Kalgoorlie, at 10.15am on Friday when he was confronted by a man who was home with his wife and child and an altercation ensued.

Smith, who was armed with a machete while wearing a balaclava and had been released from prison just 26 days earlier, was seriously injured and rushed to Kalgoorlie Regional Hospital before being flown to Royal Perth Hospital.

The homeowner suffered an arm injury and cuts to his hands that also required hospital treatment, The West Australian reported.

Western Australia Police detectives are investigating the incident, and the homeowner has not been charged. Police said he is helping with the investigation and that Smith’s cause of death is yet to be determined.

A nearby resident said the young couple have since fled their home in fear of retribution from the indigenous community, and that other neighbours were also frightened of reprisal attacks.
https://www.noticer.news/kalgoorlie-boulder-aboriginal-home-invader-dies/

Yes, terrible for everyone, the consequence of your totally inadequate 'lock em' up/revolving door' policies which will continue to fail until the nation eradicates the entrenched poverty and socioecomomic disadvantage responsible for (in this case, black) youth crime.

Gnads of course - typical of RW Conservatives - doesn't want to contribute to the cost of eradicating poverty and ensuring enployment for all youth; indeed he's more interested in protecting the wealth of billionaires.

Deplorable.

As for self-defence, the householder successfully defended himself against a 'low -life' for which the comminty itself is responsible for creating. The invader made the mistake of not sizing up his opponent before entering the house. Breaking in, armed with a machete, was a big mistake in this case; the homeowner was no doubt outraged rather than cowered.

And we are all complicit, as shown by (white) fear of retaliation (for the youth's death) from a dysfunctional black community for whom we must all bear responsibility.

Just as we are all complicit in the ongoing genocide in Gaza: the UNSC should announce to the disputants on both side:

1. UN res 242 will be implemented forthwith without negotiation, with borders as outlined in UN res 181.

Negotiation between Netanyahu and Hamas are impossible.

2. Settlers who resist will be bulldozed out of the WB, via bullet proof bulldozers, the settlers' lives will be in their own hands.

3. IDF and Hamas personnel who resist will be eliminated by the UNSC's precision drone technology.

(But we have the Jewish lobby combining in an unholy alliance with RW Christians in the US, which destroys UNSC unity re UN res 181, via the US UNSC veto).

.......

Similarly, in Boulder-Kargoolie:

Sale of grog will be curtailed until all blacks are gainfully employed and families are safe. Whites who object
can leave the town.

And taxes on Oz wealthy will have to be increased until socioeconomic disadvantage is eradicated.

But the wealthy are as self-interested as the rest of us.

Something to think about, you losers.....

Apart from a "right" to self-defence.

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« Last Edit: Dec 7^th, 2024 at 11:00am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #127 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 11:11am

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 11:00pm:

TGD:

As per the graph: from c. 25% to c. 15%?

There is no rapid decrease after 1996 are you blind or stupid?

The pale green line shows a drop from 25% to 15%.
Not worthy of recognition?

In the meantime your "right " to self defence has descended into a slanging match about gun ownership and gun types, while the US has the highest rate of gun deaths in the developed world.

google

Firearm homicide rate

In 2021, the U.S. had the highest rate of firearm homicide among high-income countries with populations over 10 million.

Deplorable.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #128 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 12:01pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 4:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 4:27pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 4:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 11:36am:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 5^th, 2024 at 9:13pm:

‘’ So the 2nd permits you to use military grade weapons for 'self-defence'. See the problem?’’

No, because military grade weapons are generally inferior and much less powerful than civilian firearms.

Ok got it

But I see you have abandoned defending the notion of "rights".

eg, re the "right" to self-defence:

You said someone who (unlawfully) theatens your life, forfeits his "right to life".

Fair enough, but a jury will want to consider WHY someone sought to threaten your life.

Was his action a crimimal act, as defined in law, or were there extenuating circumstances?

So we get back to man-made law as the basis of "rights". Hopefully, that law is based on 'morality, justice and fairness'....

What causes individuals to commit crime?

Why would a jury h/ave any problems when the attack was not lawful?

Because of the concept of reasonable force, in law:

"the minimum amount of force necessary to prevent harm or crime, protect oneself or property, or conduct a lawful arrest or prevent an escape".

A jury will of course become involved if there is a dead body....

Quote:

On military grade weapons; I presume that you mean current ones?

Yes, that's why the 18th century 2nd A is obsolete, apart from the fact frontier citizens don't need to protect themselves from marauding Indians, or the army of the British King, in our time with professional standing armies.

Ok, so it’d be alright to have the out of date military weapons of bygone days?
What;’s the cut off datee?

No: the 2nd is "out of date", as well as the weapons of the day; attacks are more likely to come from WITHIN the community, rather than from outside it - external theats which indeed require a "well-armed militia" for the defence of the state.

Failure to understand that point is why the US has the highest rate of gun deaths of any large first world country (as noted previously). The last external attack on the US was 9/11, and all the guns owned by private citizens in the US were useless; it took the US military to exact revenge...

Quote:

Locally, if in fear of one’s life using lethal force iis justified.
If you believe that an attacker plans to kill you then stopping him by any means is justified.

Yes, but the evidence is a nation can reduce the death toll in self-defence cases, by restricting access to guns.

Quote:

Even to using a firearm, even though the bright brains of the Government, in the National Firearms Agreement said that a firearm must never be used for self defence.
Had they no knowledge of Court decisions?

Yeh, well the US has created it's own bed (with more guns than citizens), so the US must lay in it...

Quote:

Bye the way, the Second Amendment does not say anything about firearms in particular it refers to ‘arms’ which may be firearms, swords knives and as the Founding Fathers had knowledge of machine guns, fully automatic.guns and rifles multi shot pistols.
They also knew of and some of them had seen breech loading firearms and cartridges, but be that as it may, the Second Amendment merely sets up the Militia and secures for it a source of arms based on the existing right of the people to possess them.

yeh - and a "well-armed militia necessary to secure a free state" (from external aggression), will sensibly require different weapons to those needed for citizens to defend themselves (self-defence) against one another.

Quote:

This ‘’. . .right of the people. . .’’ Was given the force of law by being included in the Bill of Rights.

The "right" to self defence?

The problem is how; certainly the 2nd needs to repealed, explained above.

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Frank

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #129 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 12:04pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2024 at 10:54am:

Frank wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 2:36pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 28^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

Apr 11, 2024
https://www.9news.com.au/national/queensland-news-man-killed-one-injured-after-alleged-axe-attack-south-of-the-gold-coast/486b6c2d-37b1-4ec9-9014-845b276bb3e3

Quote:

Two masked men armed with an axe allegedly stormed an Oxford Street home in Kingscliff, south of Queensland's Gold Coast, about 8pm on Tuesday.
The home invaders confronted 66-year-old Alan Kerr and struck him with the axe multiple times, partially severing his hand, police said.

Quote:

"We have been informed that the occupant, in self defence and in an attempt to protect himself, has armed himself with a knife and struck the deceased to the chest," he said.
"We will be examining the circumstances surrounding the incident, in particular the conduct of the occupant if the conduct was necessary and proportionate to his safety."

Machete-wielding aboriginal home invader dies in hospital after alleged clash with homeowner

Police said Tyron Smith, 20, was attempting to break into the house in Boulder, Kalgoorlie, at 10.15am on Friday when he was confronted by a man who was home with his wife and child and an altercation ensued.

Smith, who was armed with a machete while wearing a balaclava and had been released from prison just 26 days earlier, was seriously injured and rushed to Kalgoorlie Regional Hospital before being flown to Royal Perth Hospital.

The homeowner suffered an arm injury and cuts to his hands that also required hospital treatment, The West Australian reported.

Western Australia Police detectives are investigating the incident, and the homeowner has not been charged. Police said he is helping with the investigation and that Smith’s cause of death is yet to be determined.

A nearby resident said the young couple have since fled their home in fear of retribution from the indigenous community, and that other neighbours were also frightened of reprisal attacks.
https://www.noticer.news/kalgoorlie-boulder-aboriginal-home-invader-dies/

Yes, terrible for everyone, the consequence of your totally inadequate 'lock em' up/revolving door' policies which will continue to fail until the nation eradicates the entrenched poverty and socioecomomic disadvantage responsible for (in this case, black) youth crime.

Well, this guy is not going in and out of prison any more.

As Confucius said, "If you can't control yourself someone else will control you."

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #130 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 12:16pm

Frank wrote on Dec 7^th, 2024 at 12:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2024 at 10:54am:

Frank wrote on Dec 6^th, 2024 at 2:36pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 28^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

Apr 11, 2024
https://www.9news.com.au/national/queensland-news-man-killed-one-injured-after-alleged-axe-attack-south-of-the-gold-coast/486b6c2d-37b1-4ec9-9014-845b276bb3e3

Quote:

Two masked men armed with an axe allegedly stormed an Oxford Street home in Kingscliff, south of Queensland's Gold Coast, about 8pm on Tuesday.
The home invaders confronted 66-year-old Alan Kerr and struck him with the axe multiple times, partially severing his hand, police said.

Quote:

"We have been informed that the occupant, in self defence and in an attempt to protect himself, has armed himself with a knife and struck the deceased to the chest," he said.
"We will be examining the circumstances surrounding the incident, in particular the conduct of the occupant if the conduct was necessary and proportionate to his safety."

Machete-wielding aboriginal home invader dies in hospital after alleged clash with homeowner

Police said Tyron Smith, 20, was attempting to break into the house in Boulder, Kalgoorlie, at 10.15am on Friday when he was confronted by a man who was home with his wife and child and an altercation ensued.

Smith, who was armed with a machete while wearing a balaclava and had been released from prison just 26 days earlier, was seriously injured and rushed to Kalgoorlie Regional Hospital before being flown to Royal Perth Hospital.

The homeowner suffered an arm injury and cuts to his hands that also required hospital treatment, The West Australian reported.

Western Australia Police detectives are investigating the incident, and the homeowner has not been charged. Police said he is helping with the investigation and that Smith’s cause of death is yet to be determined.

A nearby resident said the young couple have since fled their home in fear of retribution from the indigenous community, and that other neighbours were also frightened of reprisal attacks.
https://www.noticer.news/kalgoorlie-boulder-aboriginal-home-invader-dies/

Yes, terrible for everyone, the consequence of your totally inadequate 'lock em' up/revolving door' policies which will continue to fail until the nation eradicates the entrenched poverty and socioecomomic disadvantage responsible for (in this case, black) youth crime.

Well, this guy is not going in and out of prison any more.

Correct, but there are plenty like him who will continue to do so, and sometimes the dead person is the victim not the perpetrator. It behoves the nation to stop the ongoing trauma.

Quote:

As Confucius said, "If you can't control yourself someone else will control you."

(Asuming C. did say that): C. wasn't aware of different systems of macroeconomic mobilization of resources - which certainly will affect individuals' abilities to control themselves.

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Sir Eoin O Fada Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2236 New England, NSW Gender:	Re: Self Defence, Reply #131 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 3:36pm Why are you so concerned about the USA when it is nowhere near top of the gun deaths list ?-
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 48355 Gender:	Re: Self Defence, Reply #132 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 4:16pm Statistics show that nations with the Death Penalty have the greater general violence
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11471 armidale Gender:	Re: Self Defence, Reply #133 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 4:20pm Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 7^th, 2024 at 3:36pm: Why are you so concerned about the USA when it is nowhere near top of the gun deaths list ?- It's the top of the developed world list.
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Sir Eoin O Fada Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2236 New England, NSW Gender:	Re: Self Defence, Reply #134 - Dec 7^th, 2024 at 6:14pm chimera wrote on Dec 7^th, 2024 at 4:20pm: Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 7^th, 2024 at 3:36pm: Why are you so concerned about the USA when it is nowhere near top of the gun deaths list ?- It's the top of the developed world list. What on earth has that got to do with it?
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