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chimera Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 11455 armidale Gender:	Re: Self Defence, Reply #75 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 5:55am Mens deodorants are offensive and make me keep a safe distance.
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Sir Eoin O Fada Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2236 New England, NSW Gender:	Re: Self Defence, Reply #76 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 9:44am ‘’ The law of the land, in all states of Australia, state that firearms such as Glock pistols ARE PROHIBITED FIREARMS.’’ I just read that and it was attributed to Bobby. Someone should tell all the Glock pistol owners. See, https://www.gunemporium.com.au/brand/glock/
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Bobby.

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #77 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 9:47am

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 9:44am:

‘’ The law of the land, in all states of Australia, state that firearms such as Glock pistols
ARE PROHIBITED FIREARMS.’’
I just read that and it was attributed to Bobby.

Someone should tell all the Glock pistol owners.
See, https://www.gunemporium.com.au/brand/glock/

But you need a permit and you'd never get one.

https://www.gunemporium.com.au/permit-to-acquire/

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #78 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 11:02am

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Nov 27^th, 2024 at 6:23pm:

against unlawful attack is not only a basic Right it is also an obligation.
Can this ever be disputed?

Yes. That's why we have courts of law, to judge between the balance of individual "rights".

Now obviously there will always be bad individuals who initiate attacks on other individuals for whatever reason; survival instinct causes a retaliation aka 'self-defence'. The existence of police and the law will deter most random acts of attack on the person, but indeed some circumstances will require defending one's-self as best as one can.

[There was once a strange guy called Jesus who said: "turn the other cheek".... but we'll put that to one side...].

But obviously, if everyone has a "right" to arm himself with military grade weapons for 'self-defence', that will be problematic for the community's safety:

Exhibit 1: the US with its anachronistic 2nd ammendment.

.....

Now, to the the "legal" right of nations to self-defence - which is a continuation of the ancient tribal madness.

Nations are not insane individuals, they are composed of populations of good and bad people.

International law, especially in the age of MAD, is a necessity, to solve disputes between nations BEFORE armed conflict arises. (The logistics of arming and mounting an attack by a nation are obvious and preventable, unlike attacks prosecuted by insane individuals). [Note: the Palestine -Israel conflict is a 'civil war' on the previous Palestine Mandate land, backed by external players].

Interestingly, the current Israeli genocide in Gaza, conducted on the grounds of "self defence", is concentrating everyone's minds: today the UNGA (including Oz) voted to implement the 2 state solution, beginning in 2025, recognizing there will be no peace in the ME without it.

Only 8 nations voted against it, one of them being the self-appointed "world policeman"....

It seems the concept of international law is gaining traction in the UNGA.

RW Conservatives are complaining about the UNGA vote, of course, nevertheless:

ABC NEWS

Australia has changed its position to support a UN resolution demanding "Israel bring to an end its unlawful presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory as rapidly as possible".

The resolution, passed by the UN General Assembly, also calls for an end to all new settlement activities and for settlers to be removed from the occupied territory.

Australia was one of 157 nations that voted in favour of the resolution. Seven abstained, and eight voted against it, including the USA and Israel.

ie, the governments of 3/4 of the world's nations voted in favour of international law, but not the 'world's policeman'....

Something's wrong.... Shocked

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« Last Edit: Dec 4^th, 2024 at 2:03pm by thegreatdivide »

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Sir Eoin O Fada Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2236 New England, NSW Gender:	Re: Self Defence, Reply #79 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 1:54pm The question was rhetorical. Rights exist regardless of Governments, no Government can extinguish a Right they can only suppress it. It is well to remember that the Second Amendment to the US Constitution [which has just been mentioned], does not confer any rights.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #80 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 2:10pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 1:54pm:

The question was rhetorical.

OK.

Quote:

Rights exist regardless of Governments,

Your first error: "rights" can only exist via government which is necessary to institute rule of law.

Quote:

no Government can extinguish a Right they can only suppress it.

'Rights' must be defined in law, they don't exist outside of law. An absence of law is aka anarchy.

Quote:

It is well to remember that the Second Amendment to the US Constitution [which has just been mentioned], does not confer any rights.

??

"....the right to bear arms shall not be infringed".

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Sir Eoin O Fada

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #81 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 4:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 1:54pm:

The question was rhetorical.

OK.

Quote:

Rights exist regardless of Governments,

Your first error: "rights" can only exist via government which is necessary to institute rule of law.

Quote:

no Government can extinguish a Right they can only suppress it.

'Rights' must be defined in law, they don't exist outside of law. An absence of law is aka anarchy.

Quote:

It is well to remember that the Second Amendment to the US Constitution [which has just been mentioned], does not confer any rights.

??

"....the right to bear arms shall not be infringed".

Consider,
The Right to Life, it exists without any Governmental decision.
The Right to Liberty etc., see the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

For clarification, the Second Amendment refers to an existing right it does not install/initiate, suggest or declare a right , it MENTIONS a right.. A Right that existed before the Second Amendment and a Right that will continue to exist even if the Second is abolished.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #82 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 5:22pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 4:24pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 1:54pm:

The question was rhetorical.

OK.

Quote:

Rights exist regardless of Governments,

Your first error: "rights" can only exist via government which is necessary to institute rule of law.

Quote:

no Government can extinguish a Right they can only suppress it.

'Rights' must be defined in law, they don't exist outside of law. An absence of law is aka anarchy.

Quote:

It is well to remember that the Second Amendment to the US Constitution [which has just been mentioned], does not confer any rights.

??

"....the right to bear arms shall not be infringed".

Consider,
The Right to Life, it exists without any Governmental decision.

The "right to life" is meaningless if someone decides to take your life.

You are confusing "rights" with desires.

We all desire to live, but it is wise to avoid conflict, to exercize the "right" to life....

Quote:

The Right to Liberty etc., see the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

Ditto (but the "etc" needs to be defined). Note: the UN Universal DHR applies to all (by virtue of being human), not just the strongest.

And if you invade eg crocodile territory, what is the value of your "right" to life or liberty?

Unfortunately, confusion over the meaning of "rights" has led the UN into the error of attempting to define "legal war" - an oxymoron and an insanity, in the age of MAD.

Quote:

For clarification, the Second Amendment refers to an existing right it does not install/initiate, suggest or declare a right , it MENTIONS a right.. A Right that existed before the Second Amendment and a Right that will continue to exist even if the Second is abolished.

If the 2nd Amendment is abolished, as it should be, then the individual won't have the "right" to bear military grade arms for self-defence, a contention with deadly outcomes in the US. That at least will reduce the mass slaughter we see in the US.

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Sir Eoin O Fada

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #83 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 5:55pm

The crocodile has a right to eat, if someone is foolish enough to go into the crocodile’s hunting area then they forfeit their right to life, the life is extinguished but the Right
to Life still exists likewise if someone unlawfully attacks me with the intention of taking my life then my rights override his and he dies.

I suggest that you read the Second Amendment and apply basic English meanings to the words and use reason not emotion in deciding their meaning.

I reiterate, the Second Amendment neither confers nor establishes any rights, therefore the ‘ . . right of the people to keep and bear arms. . . ‘’ , which is only associated with it shall in no way be affected

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Bobby.

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #84 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:11pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 5:55pm:

The crocodile has a right to eat, if someone is foolish enough to go into the crocodile’s hunting area then they forfeit their right to life, the life is extinguished but the Right
to Life still exists likewise if someone unlawfully attacks me with the intention of taking my life then my rights override his and he dies.

I suggest that you read the Second Amendment and apply basic English meanings to the words and use reason not emotion in deciding their meaning.

I reiterate, the Second Amendment neither confers nor establishes any rights, therefore the ‘ . . right of the people to keep and bear arms. . . ‘’ , which is only associated with it shall in no way be affected

You have the right of self defence in Australia but at
the same time you are not allowed to buy a gun and
use the reason of self defence to do it.

If you did happen to have a gun then that gun and its ammunition
would have to be by law, in 2 separate safes so
it would take too long to get to the gun and the ammo and load it
if you were in the middle of an armed home invasion. Undecided

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Sir Eoin O Fada

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #85 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:13pm

Bobby. wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 9:47am:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 9:44am:

‘’ The law of the land, in all states of Australia, state that firearms such as Glock pistols
ARE PROHIBITED FIREARMS.’’
I just read that and it was attributed to Bobby.

Someone should tell all the Glock pistol owners.
See, https://www.gunemporium.com.au/brand/glock/

But you need a permit and you'd never get one.

https://www.gunemporium.com.au/permit-to-acquire/

Bobby,
If I want a Glock I only have to apply but I don’t want a”’Plastic Fantastic’’ although I do borrow a Glock when a new one turns up at the range just to familiarise myself with the latest model
Currently I shoot a Colt 1911 in .38 Super, a WWII P38 Walther and a 1912 Steyr as well as various antique and reproduction revolving pistols.

So where did the idea that Glocks are banned come from?

Here’s a page from Used Guns which lists a number for sale.
https://usedguns.com.au/search-results/?gunsCategories&gunsCalibre&gunsCondition...

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Bobby.

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #86 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:17pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:13pm:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 9:47am:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 9:44am:

‘’ The law of the land, in all states of Australia, state that firearms such as Glock pistols
ARE PROHIBITED FIREARMS.’’
I just read that and it was attributed to Bobby.

Someone should tell all the Glock pistol owners.
See, https://www.gunemporium.com.au/brand/glock/

But you need a permit and you'd never get one.

https://www.gunemporium.com.au/permit-to-acquire/

Bobby,
If I want a Glock I only have to apply but I don’t want a”’Plastic Fantastic’’ although I do borrow a Glock when a new one turns up at the range just to familiarise myself with the latest model
Currently I shoot a Colt 1911 in .38 Super, a WWII P38 Walther and a 1912 Steyr as well as various antique and reproduction revolving pistols.

So where did the idea that Glocks are banned come from?

Here’s a page from Used Guns which lists a number for sale.
[url] https://usedguns.com.au/search-results/?gunsCategories&gunsCalibre&gunsCondition
s&gunsStates&keyword=Glock[/url]

To be honest I don't know much about guns.
I do know that after Port Arthur it's almost impossible to get one.
I think if you're a member of a shooting club you can have one stored there for you
to use at only their firing range and left there afterwards in a safe.

When I was a kid I used to shoot small bore 0.22 at a club and
all the rifles were stored there.
I got bored with it after about 5 times going there and never went back.

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Sir Eoin O Fada

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #87 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:50pm

Bobby,
‘’ To be honest I don't know much about guns.
I do know that after Port Arthur it's almost impossible to get one.
I think if you're a member of a shooting club you can have one stored there for you
to use at only their firing range and left there afterwards in a safe.

When I was a kid I used to shoot small bore 0.22 at a club and
all the rifles were stored there.
I got bored with it after about 5 times going there and never went back’’

Suggest that you start learning.
Since PA the number of pistols in civilian hands has skyrocketed likewise the number of ranges.
People keep their pistols and long arms at home where they have access at all times They must be kept under lock and key.
Firearms, at least in NSW are rarely stored at the range, most country ranges are by their very location, unsecure places and rarely visited on weekdays.

After the post PA ‘’buyback’’ the number of rifles and shotguns owned by civilians dropped but tne number now is quite high.

‘’ Australia: More Guns Now Than Before Port Arthur’’’
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australia-more-guns-now-than-before-port-...

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Bobby.

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #88 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:53pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:50pm:

Bobby,
‘’ To be honest I don't know much about guns.
I do know that after Port Arthur it's almost impossible to get one.
I think if you're a member of a shooting club you can have one stored there for you
to use at only their firing range and left there afterwards in a safe.

When I was a kid I used to shoot small bore 0.22 at a club and
all the rifles were stored there.
I got bored with it after about 5 times going there and never went back’’

Suggest that you start learning.
Since PA the number of pistols in civilian hands has skyrocketed likewise the number of ranges.
People keep their pistols and long arms at home where they have access at all times They must be kept under lock and key.
Firearms, at least in NSW are rarely stored at the range, most country ranges are by their very location, unsecure places and rarely visited on weekdays.

After the post PA ‘’buyback’’ the number of rifles and shotguns owned by civilians dropped but tne number now is quite high.

‘’ Australia: More Guns Now Than Before Port Arthur’’’
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australia-more-guns-now-than-before-port-...

I didn't know that.

https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australia-more-guns-now-than-before-port-...

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Sir Eoin O Fada

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Re: Self Defence,
Reply #89 - Dec 4^th, 2024 at 8:17pm

Bobby. wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:53pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Dec 4^th, 2024 at 6:50pm:

Bobby,
‘’ To be honest I don't know much about guns.
I do know that after Port Arthur it's almost impossible to get one.
I think if you're a member of a shooting club you can have one stored there for you
to use at only their firing range and left there afterwards in a safe.

When I was a kid I used to shoot small bore 0.22 at a club and
all the rifles were stored there.
I got bored with it after about 5 times going there and never went back’’

Suggest that you start learning.
Since PA the number of pistols in civilian hands has skyrocketed likewise the number of ranges.
People keep their pistols and long arms at home where they have access at all times They must be kept under lock and key.
Firearms, at least in NSW are rarely stored at the range, most country ranges are by their very location, unsecure places and rarely visited on weekdays.

After the post PA ‘’buyback’’ the number of rifles and shotguns owned by civilians dropped but tne number now is quite high.

‘’ Australia: More Guns Now Than Before Port Arthur’’’
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australia-more-guns-now-than-before-port-...

I didn't know that.

https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australia-more-guns-now-than-before-port-...

Yes, and it’s because of the firearm laws, without the outsourcing support of the various State Governments [with the possible exception of WA] very few of the hundreds of new or refurbished ranges would exist.
In the case of our local range we had to search to find the original target butts, the range had been out of use since about 1946.
It now has a 300 metre rifle range, 25 and 50 metre pistol ranges for. Rapid fire and target and a third range [50 metres] for Metallic targets and other disciplines, such as ‘’Cowboy Action’’.
Connection to the electricity grid, two normal toilets as well as a ‘Disabled” unit that has toilet, shower and washing facilities.
The club members put in a lot of hard work but the Government provided most of the money.
On the rapid fire range we have electronic control turning targets.
The firing points are covered [roof, side and back walls].

Then there is the access ramps for our wheelchair bound shooters, the water supply and the septic system.
All of this became possible because of the gun laws directly or as a spinoff.

Much credit must go to John Howard, the Father of the Australian Gun Lobby.

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