Australian Politics Forum - The Deep State

MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #15 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:58am

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:56am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:44am:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:41am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:38am:

Then join the public service/military/intelligence agency and
become a deep state operative to thwart or subvert the will of the state!

Yeah right - have you been smoking something? Embarrassed

We don't live in a perfect world nor are we governed by a perfect system.

There has never been a Utopian state - a word that literally translates to 'no place'.

Have your years alive not taught you that?

I don't like arrogance from our politicians and their lust for power.

They forget that we're the boss - they are our servants.

Oy vey!

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #16 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 7:16am

Not only do deep state operations likely exist, they are often exploited by the state to 'get things done'.

Personnel within the CIA/ US military have often been 'outed' as acting as deep-state operatives when the president's arse needs covering - e.g. Nixon's claims of 'shadowy figures' over Watergate, Oliver North under Reagan, Steve Bannon under Trump...

This suspected cooperative relationship between the state and the deep state was defined in the movie 'Clear and Present Danger' as the 'Potomac two-step'.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #17 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:43am

One of the reasons, if not the primary reason, JFK brought LBJ along for the ride, over the protestations of his brother, RFK, his family and the Democrat establishment. who all saw Johnson as a Texas hick (with possible old Democrat instincts) was that Johnson was a skilled politician who had gained considerable experience and influence in the House and Senate and knew well how to manage any deep-state resistance to Kennedy.

JFK was right. Johnson proved to be a master controller of Southern politics and could stare down anyone who attempted to covertly subvert Kennedy's Administration and, ultimately, his own.

However, despite LBJ's generosity towards RFK by keeping him in his old JFK post, the latter never relented in looking for opportunities to undermine Johnson (to become a deep state operative, himself) where his own cause was better served by doing so.

It could be said that wherever there is a state, there is necessarily a covert antistate (AKA deep state), operational within it.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74531 Gender:	Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist? Reply #18 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:56am Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #19 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:12pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:02am:

There are various interpretations of the term ‘deep state’ worldwide, but the common theme is that it refers to a covert group that operates independently of a national government (democratic or not) to thwart or subvert that government’s will.

These covert groups can be components of the public service, military, security agencies, religious groups, business corporations, ethnic or political separatists, &etc.

Famously, Eisenhower warned of it in the US with his industrial-military complex speech. Kennedy went to ‘war’ with the CIA, which he claimed was operating beyond the authority of the president and Congress. Johnson blamed the Civil Rights movement for undermining support for the Vietnam War. With Nixon, it was the counter-culture movement and anti-administration forces aligned against him. Reagan claimed military personnel were responsible for the Iran-Contra affair.

Trump, regarding his first administration, amazingly, and almost accidentally, blamed himself for ‘hiring the wrong people’ thus creating deep state ‘cabals’ operating - up to and including cabinet-level! Hence his current obsession and paranoia over his senior picks.

Whatever, no nation anywhere can claim to be free of a deep state – they are, primarily, covert (so their existence is often unconfirmed, unproven, merely presumed, or exist only in the mind of the head of state/government).

Ultimately, though—given that no government has ever ruled with a mandate of 100% of the people (in democratic countries, they govern usually with not much more than 50% approval and often less)—at least some organised resistance to the government’s will is likely and ineradicable.

An accurate summation of the problem of 'the deep state' which obviously exists, so long as wealthy elites in the IMF align with wealthy elites in each nation.

Yesterday the IMF praised Miliei for plunging half the nation into poverty ...Milei isn't an 'elite' but he is following the dictates of the elites.

We won't have to wait long to see if Trump can eradicate
'the deep state"....

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Brian Ross

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #20 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:12pm

Aren't we lucky we don't live in America, where all posts can be voted on to put people in positions of power despite not having any qualifications for the position. We have had our own "Deep State" for decades. They used to be called "Mandarins of the Public Service". Gough got rid of them and replaced them with contract labourers. Now we have public service roundabouts when ever the Government chances. What fun! Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #21 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:14pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:56am:

Quote:

The Deep State - Does it Exist?

No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives.

No personal responsibility from that lot Cheesy

Careful John: Bullock with her obsolete NAIRU dogma is part of the 'deep state'.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #22 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:43pm

We know Bullock is nothing more than a political appointee according to the dogma of the day re 'women first' and all that set of lies, and that her position is one of direct underling to both the government and the financial institutions (broader than banks) who operate in lockstep for profit, which many government ministers and employees gain from profiteering via the banks etc, and any massively government funded operation about to start up - principally in the 'social science' area, where such opportunities for 'social engineer's abound.

That isn't called any 'NAIRU' that you espouse - it's called corruption and Neo-Feudalism - and your 'solution' to that problem is only more and more Neo-Feudalism.

Time to kick the bloody lot under a bus and start with some real people.....

Aside:- In comments re a Lividia Thorpe article last night, someone said that parliament benefited from 'real people' like she and Jackie Lambie - Lambie is far more measured and calm about her work and would flatly refuse to be grouped with Lividia ... and there are other 'Aboriginal' etc types who are far more balanced - Jacinta Price for example. REAL PEOPLE does not really mean Housos or Imports with limited intellect and reasoning and a lot of Hitlerian madness about them... the type prepared to do anything to get on and stay on the gravy train... peasants in Armani ....

When elected, I shall attend the House in shorts in summer and T-shirt and trackies and flanno in winter.... to make a statement... and my office will be open Mon-Fri and sometimes in a crisis every day. Get me a Snowies bashed Akubra....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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aquascoot

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #23 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:08pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:12pm:

Aren't we lucky we don't live in America, where all posts can be voted on to put people in positions of power despite not having any qualifications for the position. We have had our own "Deep State" for decades. They used to be called "Mandarins of the Public Service". Gough got rid of them and replaced them with contract labourers. Now we have public service roundabouts when ever the Government chances. What fun! Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #24 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:13pm

aquascoot wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:08pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:12pm:

Aren't we lucky we don't live in America, where all posts can be voted on to put people in positions of power despite not having any qualifications for the position. We have had our own "Deep State" for decades. They used to be called "Mandarins of the Public Service". Gough got rid of them and replaced them with contract labourers. Now we have public service roundabouts when ever the Government chances. What fun! Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #25 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:33pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:43am:

One of the reasons, if not the primary reason, JFK brought LBJ along for the ride, over the protestations of his brother, RFK, his family and the Democrat establishment. who all saw Johnson as a Texas hick (with possible old Democrat instincts) was that Johnson was a skilled politician who had gained considerable experience and influence in the House and Senate and knew well how to manage any deep-state resistance to Kennedy.

JFK was right. Johnson proved to be a master controller of Southern politics and could stare down anyone who attempted to covertly subvert Kennedy's Administration and, ultimately, his own.

However, despite LBJ's generosity towards RFK by keeping him in his old JFK post, the latter never relented in looking for opportunities to undermine Johnson (to become a deep state operative, himself) where his own cause was better served by doing so.

It could be said that wherever there is a state, there is necessarily a covert antistate (AKA deep state), operational within it.

JFK?
1,800 secret files have still not been released after 61 years.

The rumor is that the Deep State killed JFK.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #26 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:48pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:56am:

Quote:

The Deep State - Does it Exist?

No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives.

No personal responsibility from that lot Cheesy

How could it not exist?

There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons.

Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won.

And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with.

The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable.

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Bobby.

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #27 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:49pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:56am:

Quote:

The Deep State - Does it Exist?

No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives.

No personal responsibility from that lot Cheesy

How could it not exist?

There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons.

Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won.

And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with.

The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable.

Trump will get rid of them -
it will be a purge - a night of the long knives.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #28 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:50pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:12pm:

Aren't we lucky we don't live in America, where all posts can be voted on to put people in positions of power despite not having any qualifications for the position. We have had our own "Deep State" for decades. They used to be called "Mandarins of the Public Service". Gough got rid of them and replaced them with contract labourers. Now we have public service roundabouts when ever the Government chances. What fun! Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Yes, that has been a tactic to diminish the deep state in democratic societies by making heads of departments and senior executives term-of-government employees.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Deep State - Does it Exist?
Reply #29 - Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:54pm

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:49pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:56am:

Quote:

The Deep State - Does it Exist?

No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives.

No personal responsibility from that lot Cheesy

How could it not exist?

There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons.

Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won.

And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with.

The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable.

Trump will get rid of them -
it will be a purge - a night of the long knives.

There are almost 3 million Federal civilian public servants in the US government.

About as many again are non-civilians.

Nearly half will have voted for the Democrats.

The deep state is ineradicable.

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