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Poll Poll
Question: Do you support or oppose using Nuclear power in Australia?

Strongly Support    
  9 (64.3%)
Somewhat Support    
  0 (0.0%)
Strongly Oppose    
  2 (14.3%)
Somewhat Oppose    
  2 (14.3%)
Don't know    
  1 (7.1%)




Total votes: 14
« Created by: Captain Nemo on: Dec 13th, 2024 at 2:28pm »

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Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables (Read 4042 times)
whiteknight
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Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Dec 9th, 2024 at 9:20am
 
CSIRO reaffirms nuclear power likely to cost twice as much as renewables   Sad

Dec 9 2024
ABC News

The CSIRO has doubled down on its previous findings on cost and lead times of nuclear power for Australia.

In short:   Sad
The CSIRO's new GenCost report again says a nuclear power plant for Australia would likely cost twice as much as renewable energy.

Australia's leading science agency also said nuclear power plants enjoyed relatively little financial advantage from their long lives and would run at a capacity similar to coal.

What's next?
The Coalition has put forward a nuclear power plan for Australia but is yet to release how much they expect it to cost.


Building a nuclear power plant in Australia would likely cost twice as much as renewable energy even accounting for the much longer life-span of reactors, according to a new report from Australia's leading science agency.

In its latest economic analysis of the cost of building various energy projects, the CSIRO found nuclear plants enjoyed relatively little financial advantage from their long lives, which could be double a solar or wind farm.

The CSIRO regularly releases the GenCost report, which looks at the cost of Australia's energy sources. It has consistently found renewable to be the cheapest option, despite a run of inclusions at the request of critics to make changes to the modelling — the latest being the life span of a nuclear plant.


And the agency said there was little evidence to suggest nuclear reactors in Australia would be able to benefit from running flat-out around the clock, noting they would face the same forces that are hollowing out the business case for coal.

The conclusions come after the CSIRO copped heavy criticism over a report in May that found Australia's first nuclear power plant would cost up to $17 billion in today's dollars and not be operational until 2040.

At the time, critics including opposition energy spokesman Ted O'Brien, who is spearheading the Coalition's case for nuclear power, said the CSIRO analysis was flawed.


Ted O'Brien has criticised CSIRO's previous analysis on nuclear.

Central to the criticism were suggestions the report failed to properly account for a nuclear reactor's long life, which could be anywhere up to 60 or even 80 years.

Similarly, there were complaints the CSIRO wrongly discounted how much power a reactor would produce, with backers arguing nuclear plants could run at or near their capacity for long periods of time.

They also attacked findings that it would take "at least" 15 years to build a nuclear power plant in Australia, saying this was overly pessimistic.

But in an update of its GenCost report — which it carries out annually alongside the Australian Energy Market Operator — the CSIRO has largely stood by its earlier findings.

Nuclear's long life 'no advantage'
According to the agency, energy generation projects were typically funded using loans that lasted 30 years, which was about the life span of a solar or wind project.

CSIRO chief economist Paul Graham said even if a nuclear project could get a loan with a 60-year term, higher interest payments would wipe out many of the supposed gains.

In the more likely event a nuclear project would get a loan with a typical life span, Mr Graham said it was true the operating costs of the reactor would be relatively low once the debt had been repaid.


The report found nuclear's long life span would have no significant cost benefit over renewables.

However, he said these low costs would be short-lived because nuclear reactors faced substantial refurbishment costs running into billions of dollars after about 40 years of operation.

For these reasons, Mr Graham said there was no "unique" cost advantage offered by nuclear compared with renewable energy projects backed by transmission lines and so-called firming technologies such as batteries and gas plants.


"If we had a 60-year nuclear project and a 60-year solar project where you rebuild the solar halfway through, both require re-investments," Mr Graham said.

"Overall we didn't find any additional unique benefit from nuclear generation and its long life, and so the relativity between nuclear and renewables hasn't changed."

Mr Graham said there was also scant evidence to suggest a nuclear reactor in Australia would be able to repay its debt quickly and lower its costs by running at close to full capacity much of time.

Nuclear's capacity analog to coal's
He said one of the criticisms faced by the CSIRO following its May report was that it had been too miserly in its calculation of a nuclear plant's "capacity factor".

The term refers to the share of a plant's nameplate capacity that is actually used.

It is almost invariably higher in base-load generators such as nuclear and coal plants, which can run around the clock, compared with wind turbines and solar panels, which are dependent on the weather.

Mr Graham said supporters of nuclear had argued the technology should be given a capacity factor of 93 per cent, in line with reactors in the United States.

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whiteknight
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #1 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 9:24am
 
But Mr Graham said the US was an "outlier" on this score and the average for reactors globally was more like 80 per cent.

One in 10 reactors around the world, he said, was operating at a capacity below 60 per cent.

What's more, Mr Graham said that while Australia didn't have any nuclear plants, it had plenty of black coal generators, which were analogous in many ways because they were designed to run full throttle most of the time.

And Australia's black coal generators, he said, were operating at ever lower capacity factors as cheap renewable energy — particularly solar power — flooded into the market and squeezed out conventional sources.

"We're certainly happy to recognise the potential for high generation (from nuclear) during the year," Mr Graham said.

"But we continue to also use a range which recognises that some base-load generation can operate down closer to 50-53 per cent."

No plant likely until 2040
On the subject of lead times to build nuclear, Mr Graham was steadfast.

He said suggestions Australia would be able to build its first nuclear reactor in sooner than 15 years seemed to stretch plausibility.

Nuclear proponents have pointed as an example to the United Arab Emirates, which went from having no reactors to commissioning its first project in 12 years.

Mr Graham said the UAE was, in many ways, a best-case scenario for the nuclear industry but the country was hardly comparable to Australia.

Barakah nuclear power plant in the United Arab Emirates
The Barakah nuclear power plant in the United Arab Emirates took 12 years from being commissioned. (Supplied: IAEA)

The UAE was an absolute monarchy with an autocratic style of government but Mr Graham said Australia was a democracy where policies were subject to many checks and balances.

Accordingly, he said overturning Australia's ban on nuclear power, "planning, permitting and financing" a reactor would be a daunting task that took a lot of time.

"As such, at least 15 years remains the most plausible lead time," the GenCost report noted.

Under plans that have been foreshadowed by their private owners, most of Australia's coal-fired power stations are due to retire by the middle of next decade.

"After we evaluated these three topics, potential for longer life, how often nuclear generates throughout the year, when we applied those numbers, we are still finding that large-scale nuclear would be 1.5 to 2.5 times the cost of generating from firmed solar and wind," Mr Graham said.

In line with its earlier findings, the CSIRO concluded renewable energy and the technologies required to back it up would be the cheapest way of meeting Australia's future energy needs.

Energy Minister Chris Bowen said the CSIRO had accommodated the Coalition's concerns and still found that Labor's renewables-led approach was the cheapest way of overhauling the electricity grid.

He described the nuclear policy as "wildly optimistic", in light of the report's findings.

"[It] thought about those criticisms, analysed those criticisms and found that those criticisms don't stack up," Mr Bowen said.

Mr Dutton responded, suggesting Mr Bowen had interfered in the CSIRO's report.

"[Labor] hasn't seen our plan yet and they're out bagging it," Mr Dutton said.

"It just looks to me like there's a heavy hand of Chris Bowen in all of this and I don't think people want to see that."

In what Mr Graham described as an "amazing achievement" in an inflationary environment, the CSIRO found battery costs had tumbled 20 per cent in the 12 months to June 30, while there had been back-to-back decreases of 8 per cent for large-scale solar.

Would a nuclear power plant fit Australia's needs?
Photo shows A graphic of a nuclear power plant with a nuclear symbol and the numbers 2040 and 2045 in the foregroundA graphic of a nuclear power plant with a nuclear symbol and the numbers 2040 and 2045 in the foreground
As the shift away from fossil fuels gathers pace, the Coalition has turned to an emissions-free technology with a long and contentious history — nuclear fission. These are the numbers you should keep in mind when thinking about its place in Australia's energy transition.

Wind projects, by contrast, increased by 2 per cent last year following a whopping jump of 35 per cent in 2022-23 and an 8 per cent hike in 2023-24.

The CSIRO found gas project costs were continuing to rise, although this partly reflected the shift towards technology that could also run on hydrogen.

Cost estimates for miniature nuclear plants called small modular reactors (SMRs), meanwhile, were still by far and away considered the most expensive type of new energy project.

However, the CSIRO said it expected costs for SMRs to roughly halve — albeit to a level that was still the most expensive — by 2030 as the technology was commercialised overseas.
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Captain Nemo
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #2 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:09am
 
I don't care if Nuclear power costs twice as much as renewables.

I want 24/7 electricity and you either go with gas or coal to firm the supply or you go nuclear.

Which one out of nuclear; gas; coal has zero CO2 emissions?
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« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:57am by Captain Nemo »  

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #3 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:46am
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:09am:
I don't care if Nuclear power cost twice as much as renewables.

I want 24/7 electricity and you either go with gas or coal to firm the supply or you go nuclear.

Which one out of nuclear; gas; coal has zero CO2 emissions?


Hydro and batteries can be used for firming....Coal is unreliable as the infrastructure ages and no new coal fired power plants will be built....Gas is the most expensive fossil fuel and Nuclear is twice the cost of Renewable energy....If the Coalition builds Nuclear power plants investment in renewable energy will dry up due to the uncertainty of the investment when Nuclear comes online....The remaining Coal fired plants that currently provide 50% of Australia's power needs will need to be retired before the first Nuclear power plant is built....Australia cannot afford Peter Dutton or Nuclear power!!!

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/nuclear-power-stations-are-not-appropriate-for...
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #4 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:57am
 
Looming gas shortages and power brown-outs will probably change minds over the next few years.

We need to get going with nuclear generation and start soon.

Europe discovered that closing nuclear power plants was a mistake.

The Middle East is increasing its interest in nuclear too.
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #5 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 11:11am
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:57am:
We need to get going with nuclear generation and start soon.



No we don't. What we need is the anti renewables lobby to get out of the way and to stop making up crap.

That includes all the politicians working for the mining groups.
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #6 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 12:04pm
 
Electricity costs
The levelised cost of different technologies producing a megawatt hour of electricity, in 2024 dollars.

$500
Solar
$43
$73
Wind onshore
$70
$116
Black coal
$102
$164
90% Renewable energy (wind and solar)
$106
$150
Gas
$128
$192
Wind offshore (fixed)
$135
$175
Nuclear (large-scale reactor)
$155
$252
Nuclear (small modular reactor)
$400
$663
Source: CSIRO, GenCost report December 2024

What ever happened to hydro?
Have they canceled the snowy mountains 2 project?
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Captain Nemo
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #7 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 12:16pm
 
Renewables alone will never be able to supply 24/7 electricity.

Nuclear generation in Australia would not be a replacement for renewables however, but it would be a CO2 friendly way of providing that missing base load capability.

The longer we wait to get started, the worse things will become.



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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #8 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 2:05pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 12:16pm:
Renewables alone will never be able to supply 24/7 electricity.

Nuclear generation in Australia would not be a replacement for renewables however, but it would be a CO2 friendly way of providing that missing base load capability.

The longer we wait to get started, the worse things will become.






Indeed.

And hydro. We should make much better use of the rivers.

The waste products and energy requirements of solar, wind and battery should be taken into account, too.
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #9 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 2:51pm
 
...
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #10 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 2:51pm
 
Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 2:05pm:
Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 12:16pm:
Renewables alone will never be able to supply 24/7 electricity.

Nuclear generation in Australia would not be a replacement for renewables however, but it would be a CO2 friendly way of providing that missing base load capability.

The longer we wait to get started, the worse things will become.






Indeed.

And hydro. We should make much better use of the rivers.

The waste products and energy requirements of solar, wind and battery should be taken into account, too.


The waste products from Nuclear should be taken into account too....How long to store Nuclear waste and at what cost???

Huh Huh Huh
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #11 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 2:57pm
 
Reading the figures I quoted below my main issue with nuclear is that while I accept we need the smaller reactors due to the speed in which they can be built larger scale reactors need to be put on the agenda straight away.

My thoughts are we can and should use both nuclear and renewables and definitely more hydro.

The biggest issue is the current pricing systems.
That only favours the privatisation companies not the community.

No matter what we do if we continue to use the business model of the failed privatised labor government model energy will become a luxury to most Australians.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-08/power-failure/8497716



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« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2024 at 3:04pm by Daves2017 »  

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lee
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #12 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 3:34pm
 
"Battery durations of 24 hours and 48 hours have been added for the
first time. None of these capital costs provide enough information to be able to say one technology is more competitive than the other. Capital costs are only one factor. Additional cost factors include energy input costs (where not already included), round trip efficiency, operating costs and design life."

And

"Note that these $/kWh costs are not for energy delivered but rather a capacity of storage."

And

"Storage capital costs in $/kW increase as storage duration increases because additional storage duration adds costs without adding any additional power capacity to the project (Figure 3-4). Additional storage duration is most costly for batteries. These trends are one of the reasons why batteries tend to be deployed in low storage duration applications, while PHES is deployed in high duration applications."

https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/energy/GenCost

Go to 2024-25. If you copy the link it takes you to
2023-24 as below.
https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/energy/GenCost/2023-24-GenCost...

Of course people will tell us that Batteries can be long storage solutions.

But all this uncertainty and they still manage to fine renewables and storage cheaper. Wink

Offshore wind is assumed to increase in capacity factor. Wink

No mention of wind or solar drought.

A lot of averages. Each person has on average about 1 testicle and 1 fully formed breast.
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lee
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #13 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 3:54pm
 
philperth2010 wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:46am:
Hydro and batteries can be used for firming.



The CSIRO says the batteries are only good for short term. There is limited availability for pumped hydro, once the drowning of land gets noticed.

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:46am:
Coal is unreliable as the infrastructure ages and no new coal fired power plants will be built.


As compared to wind and Solar at around 30% efficiency?

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 10:46am:
If the Coalition builds Nuclear power plants investment in renewable energy will dry up due to the uncertainty of the investment when Nuclear comes online..


You say that like it is a bad thing. Wink
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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #14 - Dec 9th, 2024 at 4:14pm
 
whiteknight wrote on Dec 9th, 2024 at 9:20am:
CSIRO reaffirms nuclear power likely to cost twice as much as renewables   Sad

Dec 9 2024
ABC News





This is what they released

Quote:
GenCost 2024-25 draft report released for consultation


The nine-week public consultation period for the draft 2024-25 GenCost Report, a leading economic analysis of future electricity generation costs in Australia, is now open for input.

9 December 2024
News Release

“Collaboration and transparency are central to this process, and the feedback we receive plays a vital role in ensuring our data and projections are relevant and impactful.” 

The draft GenCost 2024-25 report is open for consultation until 11 February 2025. Feedback can be submitted via AEMO's website from 11 December 2024.

https://www.csiro.au/en/news/All/News/2024/December/GenCost-2024-25-Draft-Report...


Sounds like they have put it up for peer review which it hasn't passed at this stage.

Anything they have posted can be contested
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