Australian Politics Forum - Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables

Frank

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #105 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:36am

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:28am:

lee wrote on Dec 11^th, 2024 at 11:05pm:

They can be built to withstand earthquakes. The technology is decades old.

Didn't help Fukishima Roll Eyes

Deaths from that earthquake and tsunami: 20,000
From the damage to the nuclear reactor: 1 (suspected, 4 years later)

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John Smith

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #106 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:48am

Frank wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:36am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:28am:

lee wrote on Dec 11^th, 2024 at 11:05pm:

They can be built to withstand earthquakes. The technology is decades old.

Didn't help Fukishima Roll Eyes

Deaths from that earthquake and tsunami: 20,000
From the damage to the nuclear reactor: 1 (suspected, 4 years later)

I'm betting that you think you have a point Cheesy

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Leroy

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #107 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:54am

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:33am:

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:48am:

Nuclear is cheaper

only in your own mind.

Its expensive for our government.
Quote:

In 2022, the average total generating cost for nuclear energy was $30.92 per megawatt-hour (MWh). The 2022
total generating costs were 0.8 percent lower than in 2021, and also were nearly 40 percent below 2012 costs,
surpassing the goal set by the nuclear industry’s Delivering the Nuclear Promise (DNP) initiative. Total generating
costs include capital, fuel, and operating costs
https://www.nei.org/CorporateSite/media/filefolder/resources/reports-and-briefs/...

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Captain Nemo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10432 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables Reply #108 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 11:03am You get what you pay for:
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philperth2010 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20410 Perth Gender:	Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables Reply #109 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 11:54am How does Dutton know Nuclear will be cheaper when he has not released the report on Nuclear energy....So either Dutton is making it up or he has the report and is refusing to release it....Dutton cannot hide the report forever and Australians deserve answers!!!
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Leroy

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #110 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 12:04pm

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 11:54am:

How does Dutton know Nuclear will be cheaper when he has not released the report on Nuclear energy....So either Dutton is making it up or he has the report and is refusing to release it....Dutton cannot hide the report forever and Australians deserve answers!!!

Huh

The rest of the world knows that nuclear power is cheaper, other questions remain, is it safe and, what do we do with the waste.

These costs proven to be accurate from real power stations.

Australia is different, government bureaucracy costs far exceed that of making the actual power. When they compare costs in Australia they include levies on nuclear and coal power and subsidized costs on renewables.

I'm all for renewables but how do you maintain reliability with renewables, at the moment we have to have enough capacity from coal and gas to fulfill the entire grid capacity. No one can explain how it will be done with renewables.

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John Smith

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #111 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 12:15pm

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:54am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:33am:

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:48am:

Nuclear is cheaper

only in your own mind.

Its expensive for our government.
Quote:

In 2022, the average total generating cost for nuclear energy was $30.92 per megawatt-hour (MWh). The 2022
total generating costs were 0.8 percent lower than in 2021, and also were nearly 40 percent below 2012 costs,
surpassing the goal set by the nuclear industry’s Delivering the Nuclear Promise (DNP) initiative. Total generating
costs include capital, fuel, and operating costs
https://www.nei.org/CorporateSite/media/filefolder/resources/reports-and-briefs/...

not gullible much are you?

I'm going to bet that you believe that woolworths really are the fresh food people too Cheesy

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Leroy

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #112 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 12:27pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 12:15pm:

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:54am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:33am:

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:48am:

Nuclear is cheaper

only in your own mind.

Its expensive for our government.
Quote:

In 2022, the average total generating cost for nuclear energy was $30.92 per megawatt-hour (MWh). The 2022
total generating costs were 0.8 percent lower than in 2021, and also were nearly 40 percent below 2012 costs,
surpassing the goal set by the nuclear industry’s Delivering the Nuclear Promise (DNP) initiative. Total generating
costs include capital, fuel, and operating costs
https://www.nei.org/CorporateSite/media/filefolder/resources/reports-and-briefs/...

not gullible much are you?

I'm going to bet that you believe that woolworths really are the fresh food people too Cheesy

I willing to look at any thing you have to show what the actual costs of producing power are. I'm not stuck in my ways, if you provide something I promise I will read it and if you are correct I will acknowledge that. It makes no difference to me which energy source is cheapest because the thing that kills up on our electrical bills in Australia is the cost of bureaucracy not the actual cost of power.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74740 Gender:	Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables Reply #113 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 1:19pm Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 12:27pm: I willing to look at any thing you have to show what the actual costs of producing power are I'm happy to stick to the CSIRO's finding, it's in the opening post of this thread.
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Belgarion

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #114 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 1:50pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11^th, 2024 at 9:37pm:

Oh, dearie, dearie, me, Belgarion, you really want the near impossible from everybody don't you. Tell us what, how about you explain why these developing countries are willing to invest billions of dollars (which they really don't have) in nuclear energy when more developed countries aren't? I look forward to your response. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Look at the map. Most of the developed world and several less developed counties are investing in nuclear power. Why? Because it works, unlike the renewables fantasy. There are up front costs, often exacerbated by anti nuclear activists and bureaucrats putting any obstacle they can in the way, but nuclear provides. Those nations who are not investing in nuclear, mainly in Europe, are buying energy from those nations who do have it.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/nuclear-power-by-country

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« Last Edit: Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:55pm by Belgarion »

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17816 Gender:	Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables Reply #115 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 1:55pm John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 10:28am: lee wrote on Dec 11^th, 2024 at 11:05pm: They can be built to withstand earthquakes. The technology is decades old. Didn't help Fukishima No but a tsunami is not an earthquake.
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lee

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #116 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 2:12pm

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:07am:

If climate change is bullshit as Lee claims....Why do we need to build expensive radioactive Nuclear reactors at all....We can keep using coal and gas which is safer and cheaper...

Exactly. Thanks for that. But it is only the alarmist view that is bullshit. Wink

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:42am:

Half the links you posted do not work and the others are either 30 years old or worthless like you...

That ls because the deed was done over 30 years ago. Which links didn't work. they all worked for me, I did a live dive, Clive. Wink

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:42am:

.So global warming is crap and the world is not warming according to Lee!!!

You do know how to lie don't you, but not well. Grin

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:42am:

Why do we need to worry about heat waves shutting down Nuclear Reactors when the world is not warming and the heat is being exagerated by Governmnets and scientific institutions to make money...

Where have reactors shut down due to AGW? I am assuming that's what you are bleating about? Wink

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:42am:

Debate over....Lee wins!!!

No the climate wins, the environment wins, less mining. Wink

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:42am:

Quote:
Climate science deniers’ credibility tested

https://davidsuzuki.org/story/climate-science-deniers-credibility-tested/

OOH David Suzuki another failed environmentalist. Grin

But interesting -

"Beyond containing logical fallacies and personal attacks, the arguments aren’t credible. That’s clear from a legal case against Tim Ball, a retired University of Winnipeg geography professor with connections to anti-climate-science organizations like the misnamed, industry-funded Friends of Science and the defunct Natural Resources Stewardship Project."

Now that has a link to DeSmogblog which doesn't work. Howewver the case is likely Mike Mann V Tim Ball. and Tim Ball won because mike Mann failed to pusue his case. But that's only probably becxause he didn't have a case in the first place. Wink

And then -

"As for Tom Harris and Patrick Moore, you don’t need a judge to see how unscientific and inaccurate their arguments are. In a 2007 speech in Regina, Moore — who once worked for Greenpeace but then started shilling for industries ranging from fossil fuels to nuclear power — dismissed concerns about melting glaciers. “Why are glaciers perceived as something important? They are just big globs of frozen water. Nothing grows on them, they are basically dead zones,” he said."

Of course recent studies have concluded that the glaciers aren't in as bad a health as claimed. Wink

"David Suzuki apologizes for saying pipelines could be 'blown up'
Words were 'poorly chosen and I should not have said them,' says environmentalist"

Oooh an environmentalist talks up blowing up pipelines? Grin

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Frank

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #117 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 2:17pm

whiteknight wrote on Dec 9^th, 2024 at 9:20am:

CSIRO reaffirms nuclear power likely to cost twice as much as renewables Sad

Dec 9 2024
ABC News

The CSIRO has doubled down on its previous findings on cost and lead times of nuclear power for Australia.

In short: Sad

The CSIRO's new GenCost report again says a nuclear power plant for Australia would likely cost twice as much as renewable energy.

Australia's leading science agency also said nuclear power plants enjoyed relatively little financial advantage from their long lives and would run at a capacity similar to coal.

One of the most common objections to Australia pursuing nuclear power is that it is allegedly too expensive. This claim originates from the CSIRO’s GenCost report, which asserts that nuclear is around double the cost of wind and solar. However, Centre for Independent Studies analysis has shown that correcting some of the GenCost model’s unrealistic assumptions would negate this objection.

In fact, nuclear is easily cost-competitive with renewables – and is likely cheaper when compared with the actual costs Australians will face to firm renewables.
....

Tallying up the costs of the currently planned pumped hydro projects in the National Electricity Market – Snowy 2.0, Pioneer-Burdekin and Borumba – gives a total of $38.2 billion.

Doing the same for the many transmission projects currently being approved – VNI West, HumeLink, Central-West Orana REZ, New England REZ, Sydney Ring, Gladstone Grid Reinforcement, Queensland SuperGrid South, CopperString and Project Marinus – comes to a total of $34.6 billion.

This means Australians are set to pay $72.8 billion for pumped hydro and transmission that don’t produce any electricity and are simply there to firm intermittent wind and solar energy.

Taking at face value GenCost’s capital cost estimate of $8.7 billion to build a 1GW reactor, $72.8 billion is enough to buy eight large-scale nuclear reactors.

A recent Centre for Independent Studies paper, The six fundamental flaws underpinning the energy transition, calculated the cost at today’s prices of all the consumer batteries we’d need to support the grid by 2050 according to AEMO’s Integrated System Plan, using GenCost’s capital cost estimates.

The total comes to $229 billion.

Adding the cost of these consumer batteries to the transmission and pumped hydro costs gives you an eye-watering $301.8 billion. That means the amount Australians are set to spend on firming infrastructure in the next few decades is enough to buy 35 1GW reactors.

To put this in perspective, the peak demand for the entire National Electricity Market in 2024 was 38 GW. So for the price we’re paying just to support intermittent wind and solar, we could afford to build even a 90% nuclear grid that is cheap, clean and reliable.

It is now abundantly clear, despite anti-nuclear advocates’ claims to the contrary, that nuclear power is not exorbitantly expensive, especially when we consider how much Australian consumers are paying — and will continue to pay — to support intermittent renewables.
https://www.cis.org.au/commentary/opinion/nuclear-vs-renewables-which-is-cheaper...

And nobody is advocating a 90% nuclear grid.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #118 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 3:19pm

Belgarion wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 1:50pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11^th, 2024 at 9:37pm:

Oh, dearie, dearie, me, Belgarion, you really want the near impossible from everybody don't you. Tell us what, how about you explain why these developing countries are willing to invest billions of dollars (which they really don't have) in nuclear energy when more developed countries aren't? I look forward to your response. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Look at the map. Most of the developed world and several less developed counties are investing in nuclear power. Why? Because it works, unlike the renewables fantasy. There are up front costs, often exacerbated by anti nuclear activists and bureaucrats putting any obstacle they can in the way, but nuclear provides. Those nations who are not investing in nuclear, mainly in Europe, are buying energy from those nations who do have it.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/nuclear-power-by-country

An interesting point but it still fails to answer the question. How are developing nations which are supposedly investing in nuclear power going to handle ongoing costs such as that of waste storage? How are they going to handle the costs required for the investment in the nuclear fuel? Renewables are not a fantasy, renewables work and work well, Belgarion. Indeed your charactising them as a fantasy shows how disconnected from reality you are. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

ps. Your map is wildly inaccurate. According to it we have 10 reactors in operation in Australia. We have two.

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Frank

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #119 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 3:59pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 3:19pm:

ps. Your map is wildly inaccurate. According to it we have 10 reactors in operation in Australia. We have two.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/nuclear-power-by-country

The map doesn't show Australia with 10 reactors. Or 2.

Quote:

How are developing nations which are supposedly investing in nuclear power going to handle ongoing costs such as that of waste storage? How are they going to handle the costs required for the investment in the nuclear fuel?

They have agreements with larger, richer countries to handle all that.

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Poll
Question: Do you support or oppose using Nuclear power in Australia?
Strongly Support 9 (60.0%) Somewhat Support 1 (6.7%) Strongly Oppose 2 (13.3%) Somewhat Oppose 2 (13.3%) Don't know 1 (6.7%) Total votes: 15 « Created by: Captain Nemo on: Dec 13^th, 2024 at 2:28pm »