Australian Politics Forum - Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables

Leroy

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #120 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 4:25pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 1:19pm:

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 12:27pm:

I willing to look at any thing you have to show what the actual costs of producing power are

I'm happy to stick to the CSIRO's finding, it's in the opening post of this thread. Roll Eyes

Lets just say for arguments sake Nuclear is twice as costly as renewables.

You still need nuclear or coal/gas to be available when renewables cannot supply. Renewables can only be used when they are available. Supply has to be available 24/7.

Just say your peak load is 5,000m/w
To cover peak times you nee at least 5,000m/w of solar to cover when the wind isn't blowing and you need 5,000m/w of wind power for days when there is no sun and you need 5,000 of coal/gas for when there is no wind or sun.

You now have 15,000m/w of infrastructure, triple the cost of just having one power source.

If you have nuclear then you only need one source of power 5,000m/w for 24/7 supply.

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philperth2010

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #121 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 4:58pm

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 4:25pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 1:19pm:

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 12:27pm:

I willing to look at any thing you have to show what the actual costs of producing power are

I'm happy to stick to the CSIRO's finding, it's in the opening post of this thread. Roll Eyes

Lets just say for arguments sake Nuclear is twice as costly as renewables.

You still need nuclear or coal/gas to be available when renewables cannot supply. Renewables can only be used when they are available. Supply has to be available 24/7.

Just say your peak load is 5,000m/w
To cover peak times you nee at least 5,000m/w of solar to cover when the wind isn't blowing and you need 5,000m/w of wind power for days when there is no sun and you need 5,000 of coal/gas for when there is no wind or sun.

You now have 15,000m/w of infrastructure, triple the cost of just having one power source.

If you have nuclear then you only need one source of power 5,000m/w for 24/7 supply.

Who will invest in renewables when Nuclear will force renewables to shut down when they are most effective....Nuclear will only account for 4% of our energy needs with only gas and coal to fill the gap until the infrastructure can be built....To be fair nobody can really determine the real cost and time frame until Dutton releases his report into Nuclear Energy in Australia....Why is Dutton refusing to release the report and if it is not done yet how does Dutton know how much it will cost???

Huh

Quote:

Peter Dutton’s nuclear proposal disrupts investment in cheaper renewables. Is that the point?

Last year, when Peter Dutton campaigned against the proposed Indigenous voice to parliament, he said repeatedly that it shouldn’t be supported because it lacked detail. Now, as he seeks to upend the transition to renewable energy in Australia and spend billions of dollars to build nuclear reactors instead, there is almost none.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/19/climate-needs-com...

https://mckellinstitute.org.au/research/articles/explainer-heres-why-the-evidenc...

https://cleanenergycouncil.org.au/news-resources/new-independent-research-nuclea...

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Brian Ross

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #122 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:00pm

I've never known a day with out sun. You seem to be under the impression that solar cells don't work during daylight if there is cloud. I think you'd need a dense fog to stop them working. Even in a dense fog, Solar panels typically operate at about 50% efficiency in a dense fog. This is better than in dense cloud cover or overcast conditions when it falls to about 25% efficiency. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:31pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 48852 Gender:	Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables Reply #123 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:09pm You mean without sun, you idiot. You've obviously never experienced a solar eclipse either
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

Leroy

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #124 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:18pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:00pm:

I've never known a day with sun. You seem to be under the impression that solar cells don't work during daylight if there is cloud. I think you'd need a dense fog to stop them working. Even in a dense fog, Solar panels typically operate at about 50% efficiency in a dense fog. This is better than in dense cloud cover or overcast conditions when it falls to about 25% efficiency. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Below is the load profile for western Australia with live updates. You can see that 4am this morning there was 0.04mw of solar power and virtually no wind, coal and gas were supplying 99.9% of supply. At 2:20pm solar and wind were supplying over 50% of supply.

If you take away the coal and gas you will see how unreliable the supply will be.

https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/electricity/wholesale-electricity-market-w...

You may need to scroll down and click on fuel mix.

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Frank

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #125 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:26pm

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 4:58pm:

Last year, when Peter Dutton campaigned against the proposed Indigenous voice to parliament, he said repeatedly that it shouldn’t be supported because it lacked detail. Now, as he seeks to upend the transition to renewable energy in Australia and spend billions of dollars to build nuclear reactors instead, there is almost none.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/19/climate-needs-com...

https://mckellinstitute.org.au/research/articles/explainer-heres-why-the-evidenc...

https://cleanenergycouncil.org.au/news-resources/new-independent-research-nuclea... [/quote]

Any non-tendetious sources for this drivel?

Other countries are building coal AND nuclear power plants as well as solar and wind. Are they following Dutton?

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lee

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #126 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:39pm

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 4:58pm:

Nuclear will only account for 4% of our energy needs with only gas and coal to fill the gap until the infrastructure can be built.

That is not mentioned in your two references. You must be referring to Bowen Blowin' in the Wind.

It seem Bowen may have got his figures from the Smart Energy Council. A renewable energy concern.

"The bulk of the $121 billion would be invested by the private sector between now and 2050 to deliver about 300 gigawatts of capacity by 2050.

These figures compare to just 11 gigawatts of nuclear capacity funded by the taxpayer in the opposition’s proposal, the council said."

If you do those maths 11GW/300GW it is indeed 3.7%. However we know that even with 9 times overbuild renewables can't hack it, requiring a further 3.5GW of gas on top of the current 11.4GW, courtesy AEMO.

https://aemo.com.au/-/media/files/major-publications/isp/2024/2024-integrated-sy...

And 15GW of gas makes it 26 with nuclear. So 26GW is close to 33GW intermittent power. Wink

And AEMO specifically exclude NT and WA.

Why is Labor lying about the cost and only 4%? Wink

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lee

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #127 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:47pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:00pm:

I've never known a day with sun. You seem to be under the impression that solar cells don't work during daylight if there is cloud. I think you'd need a dense fog to stop them working.

Who said anything about them STOP working? Clouds, even light clouds, reduce the sunlight intensity, it therefore reduces solar panel output. Heavy clouds, thunderstorms, cyclonic clouds will have a significant effect. Wink

" Solar panels may generate between 10% and 25% of their normal output on cloudy days."

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/what-happens-to-solar-power-when...

So 30% average capacity goes down markedly. Wink

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« Last Edit: Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:54pm by lee »

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Brian Ross

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #128 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:36pm

Oh, dearie, dearie, me, Lee you really are a wally, you know? The point is that there is always sun, somewhere. Even with the sun obscured by cloud, the coud cover is not so complete that a solar panel does not produce some power. It might be less than optimum but it is still producing power. Leroy or rather Soren and you maintain that it doesn't produce any power. It might not here but over there where the sun is shining, it's at full power. Same for wind. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Belgarion

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #129 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:06pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 3:19pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 1:50pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11^th, 2024 at 9:37pm:

Oh, dearie, dearie, me, Belgarion, you really want the near impossible from everybody don't you. Tell us what, how about you explain why these developing countries are willing to invest billions of dollars (which they really don't have) in nuclear energy when more developed countries aren't? I look forward to your response. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Look at the map. Most of the developed world and several less developed counties are investing in nuclear power. Why? Because it works, unlike the renewables fantasy. There are up front costs, often exacerbated by anti nuclear activists and bureaucrats putting any obstacle they can in the way, but nuclear provides. Those nations who are not investing in nuclear, mainly in Europe, are buying energy from those nations who do have it.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/nuclear-power-by-country

An interesting point but it still fails to answer the question. How are developing nations which are supposedly investing in nuclear power going to handle ongoing costs such as that of waste storage? How are they going to handle the costs required for the investment in the nuclear fuel? Renewables are not a fantasy, renewables work and work well, Belgarion. Indeed your charactising them as a fantasy shows how disconnected from reality you are. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

ps. Your map is wildly inaccurate. According to it we have 10 reactors in operation in Australia. We have two.

How do you see 10 reactors in Australia on that map? As for renewables being a fantasy, how is your power bill lately? Have you noticed the increasing blackouts and the warnings from government about power usage, or the decision to allow the energy regulator to turn off your solar if deemed necessary?

All the above are a result of the ideological fantasy that so called 'renewables' can provide the power a modern nation needs, encouraged by the grifters who are making billions out of it. But wait! There's more!:

https://www.thecivilengineer.org/news/solar-farms-and-wind-turbines-tested-and-f...

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Frank

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #130 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:11pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:36pm:

Oh, dearie, dearie, me, Lee you really are a wally, you know? The point is that there is always sun, somewhere. Even with the sun obscured by cloud, the coud cover is not so complete that a solar panel does not produce some power. It might be less than optimum but it is still producing power. Leroy or rather Soren and you maintain that it doesn't produce any power. It might not here but over there where the sun is shining, it's at full power. Same for wind. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Over there... Backdoor Deidre.... where the sun dont shine...

Hear you Sigmund, loud and clear.

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Leroy

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #131 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:22pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:00pm:

I've never known a day with out sun. You seem to be under the impression that solar cells don't work during daylight if there is cloud. I think you'd need a dense fog to stop them working. Even in a dense fog, Solar panels typically operate at about 50% efficiency in a dense fog. This is better than in dense cloud cover or overcast conditions when it falls to about 25% efficiency. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Power supply has to be 24 hours a day, electricity is required even when the sun goes down.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #132 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:42pm

Frank wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:11pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 7:36pm:

Oh, dearie, dearie, me, Lee you really are a wally, you know? The point is that there is always sun, somewhere. Even with the sun obscured by cloud, the coud cover is not so complete that a solar panel does not produce some power. It might be less than optimum but it is still producing power. Leroy or rather Soren and you maintain that it doesn't produce any power. It might not here but over there where the sun is shining, it's at full power. Same for wind. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Over there... Backdoor Deidre.... where the sun dont shine...

Hear you Sigmund, loud and clear.

Oh, dearie, dearie, me, you're such a Troll, Soren. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #133 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:43pm

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:00pm:

I've never known a day with out sun. You seem to be under the impression that solar cells don't work during daylight if there is cloud. I think you'd need a dense fog to stop them working. Even in a dense fog, Solar panels typically operate at about 50% efficiency in a dense fog. This is better than in dense cloud cover or overcast conditions when it falls to about 25% efficiency. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Power supply has to be 24 hours a day, electricity is required even when the sun goes down.

Guess what blows 24 hours a day, Soren? The wind. Funny that, it nicely complements the sun as a power source. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:52pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Leroy

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Re: Nuclear Power To Cost Twice As Much As Renewables
Reply #134 - Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:45pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:43pm:

Leroy wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2024 at 5:00pm:

I've never known a day with out sun. You seem to be under the impression that solar cells don't work during daylight if there is cloud. I think you'd need a dense fog to stop them working. Even in a dense fog, Solar panels typically operate at about 50% efficiency in a dense fog. This is better than in dense cloud cover or overcast conditions when it falls to about 25% efficiency. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Power supply has to be 24 hours a day, electricity is required even when the sun goes down.

Guess what blows 24 hours a day, Soren? The wind. Funny that, it nice complements the sun as a power source. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Just like it did in Western Australia today, no wind and no solar.

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Question: Do you support or oppose using Nuclear power in Australia?
Strongly Support 9 (60.0%) Somewhat Support 1 (6.7%) Strongly Oppose 2 (13.3%) Somewhat Oppose 2 (13.3%) Don't know 1 (6.7%) Total votes: 15 « Created by: Captain Nemo on: Dec 13^th, 2024 at 2:28pm »