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Poll Poll
Question: Who has the better energy plan?

Coalition    
  9 (56.2%)
Labor    
  5 (31.2%)
Don't know    
  2 (12.5%)




Total votes: 16
« Created by: Armchair_Politician on: Dec 13th, 2024 at 4:44pm »

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Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables (Read 2272 times)
Leroy
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #45 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 12:25pm
 
Synergy are already offering incentives to enable your solar to be turned off. This is because renewables are causing disruptions to the grid. Nothing to do with nuclear.
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Daves2017
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #46 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 1:24pm
 
As talk is billions and trillions I ask how much is the private companies that currently provide electricity at a inflated price due to politicians poor contract negotiations are paying towards this?
“There “ core business.

It’s a private enterprise, why is the taxpayer funding this?
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Thomas A. Edison said as early as in 1931, “I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”
 
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Leroy
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #47 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 1:31pm
 
Daves2017 wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 1:24pm:
As talk is billions and trillions I ask how much is the private companies that currently provide electricity at a inflated price due to politicians poor contract negotiations are paying towards this?
“There “ core business.

It’s a private enterprise, why is the taxpayer funding this?


Companies that are large users of power do have contracts where they can be isolated from the grid when they agree to have their power turned off when the grid is under stress. They get cheap power on the condition that they can be turned off when the load on the grid is to much.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #48 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:12pm
 
Daves2017 wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 1:24pm:
As talk is billions and trillions I ask how much is the private companies that currently provide electricity at a inflated price due to politicians poor contract negotiations are paying towards this?
“There “ core business.

It’s a private enterprise, why is the taxpayer funding this?


You seem to think that politicians act without advice.  I wonder why?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Belgarion
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #49 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:25pm
 
Have a read of this and be better informed. Many of you will be no smarter, but still, you will be better informed:

Sweden’s Energy Minister took to social media last Thursday to voice her displeasure with the Germans. German demand for Scandinavian electricity had sent power prices through the roof.

“It is a result of decommissioned nuclear power,” Ebba Busch wrote on X.

“When it’s not windy, we get high electricity prices with this failed electricity system.”

In Norway last week the ruling centre-left Labour Party pledged to cut the interconnector with the EU grid after Germany’s latest wind drought sent Norwegian power prices to record highs. Norway’s Energy Minister Terje Aasland summed it up thus: “It’s an absolutely poo situation.”

The nuclear power debate runs on different lines in Europe and North America. A country can invest in its own reactors or scrounge nuclear power from its neighbours. The only exception to the rule is Norway, which invested heavily in hydro generation until the green­ies put a stop to it in the mid-1980s.

The case for nuclear generation in flat and dry Australia is compelling. The case against it is embarrassingly weak, as we discovered last Friday when Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen set out to discredit Frontier Economics modelling and failed.

Accusing Frontier of pushing “dodgy figures” and labelling Peter Dutton’s endorsement of its findings as “a Christmas con job” provided copy for plodding journalists. Yet Bowen could not refute the report’s most damaging finding: the cost of decarbonising the grid under his policy.

Frontier’s headline figure of $594bn is a conservative underestimate. It does not include the cost of cleaning up the grids in Western Australia and the Northern Territory.

Costs incurred directly by the consumer to install solar panels and batteries are excluded. So is the price of trading in gas appliances for electrical appliances.

Frontier does not attempt to model externalities such as the loss of amenity in regional Australia caused by wind and solar generators and augmented transmission networks. Frontier says if these were included, the total cost of the transition in the energy sector would be well more than $1 trillion.

Bowen was wise to avoid getting trapped into a messy argument about Frontier’s claim that the new transmission lines needed to accommodate variable renewable energy would cost $66bn.

Wise because the Australian Energy Market Operator’s transmission cost estimates are all over the place.

In 2020, AEMO said transmission lines to support the New England Renewable Energy Zone would cost $1.5bn. In the 2024 Integrated System Plan, AEMO has upped that figure to $3.7bn.

The Queensland SuperGrid was supposed to cost $500m. Now they’re telling us it’s $3.3bn. The HumeLink was supposed to set us back $2.4bn. AEMO’s latest guesstimate is $4.9bn.

The integrity of Frontier’s report is hard to question. It has a solid record in climate and energy research stretching back 25 years. It can hardly be accused of skewing its findings to satisfy its client since the research was conducted at the company’s expense.

For its trouble, Frontier can kiss goodbye to any government contracts so long as Labor is in power. It can expect to be shunned by the cashed-up renewable sector.

Frontier’s Danny Price could not have been blind to the reputational risk. He would’ve known that the time-poor, economically illiterate press corp would not read the report before jumping on its imagined failings.

Frontier’s motives appear genuinely publicly spirited under the circumstances.

“We have decided to do the work because of the large amount of ill-informed and misleading cost comparisons being publicly made about nuclear power,” Frontier explains in the introduction to its first report.

“We feel Australia deserves better quality analysis and commentary on this important issue.”

If Bowen were sure of his ground, he would test the report’s findings by asking AEMO to replicate its work. AEMO describes its ISP reports as “least-cost modelling”, implying they point the way to the least expensive method of meeting consumer demand for electricity. In practice, however, it self-censors its work to conform with the government’s emissions target and insistence on the use of renewables. By adding nuclear to the mix, Frontier has merely done what AEMO should have done in the first place.

AEMO’s road map is based on shaky assumptions that Frontier has been fearless in challenging.

Chief among these is the prediction that electricity demand will almost double in the next 26 years from 180,000 gigawatt hours to 340,000GWh, the so-called step change scenario. AEMO and its processor NEMMCO have a woeful record of forecasting demand.

Frontier says the step change demand forecast is so far from the historic trend that it looks incredible. It assumes that 98 per cent of new vehicles by 2050 will be fully electric and that green hydrogen technology will mature.

Frontier’s assumption that the nuclear option is $260bn cheaper than the government’s current policy is based on a more modest expectation of a rise in demand to 250,000GWh by 2050.

It also assumes the increasing power demand from AI computing largely will be met behind the meter. Data storage and processing centres will generate their own electricity to reduce outage risk. Should demand exceed expectations, nuclear technology is relatively easy to scale up.

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Belgarion
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #50 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:27pm
 
Continued:

Additional reactors can be added in sequence on the large tracts of land vacated by retiring coal-fired generators.

Scaling up renewable energy is a nightmare proposition. The scarcity of suitable land, the fragility of supply chains, the challenge of gaining community consent and the demand for yet more transmission will only increase.

Global interest in nuclear is gaining momentum. At COP29 in Azerbaijan, six more countries joined the pledge to triple the world’s nuclear energy capacity by 2050, bringing the number of nations on board with the agreement to 31. Microsoft is reopening a mothballed reactor at Three Mile Island. Some of the world’s largest banks, including Bank of America, Barclays and BNP Paribas have agreed to bankroll nuclear.

Six new reactors have gone online this year, three of them in China, where the average build time is five years. Another 65 are under construction.

Meanwhile, Australia muddles along, legally shackled to a 34 per cent reduction in carbon emissions by 2030 that it cannot possibly meet under a Luddite government fighting a rearguard action against nuclear energy that defies rational explanation.

Nick Cater
The Australian
16 Dec.
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #51 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:38pm
 
Belgarion wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:27pm:
Continued:

Additional reactors can be added in sequence on the large tracts of land vacated by retiring coal-fired generators.

Scaling up renewable energy is a nightmare proposition. The scarcity of suitable land, the fragility of supply chains, the challenge of gaining community consent and the demand for yet more transmission will only increase.

Global interest in nuclear is gaining momentum. At COP29 in Azerbaijan, six more countries joined the pledge to triple the world’s nuclear energy capacity by 2050, bringing the number of nations on board with the agreement to 31. Microsoft is reopening a mothballed reactor at Three Mile Island. Some of the world’s largest banks, including Bank of America, Barclays and BNP Paribas have agreed to bankroll nuclear.

Six new reactors have gone online this year, three of them in China, where the average build time is five years. Another 65 are under construction.

Meanwhile, Australia muddles along, legally shackled to a 34 per cent reduction in carbon emissions by 2030 that it cannot possibly meet under a Luddite government fighting a rearguard action against nuclear energy that defies rational explanation.

Nick Cater
The Australian
16 Dec.

The headline to that article

Bowen’s response to nuclear plan proves his irrational mind


And the cartoon that goes with it says Bowen would not let his judgement be clouded by common sense.

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Frank
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #52 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:46pm
 
On average, a residential electricity bill comprises:

wholesale electricity costs make up 34%
retail costs and profit margins make up 16%
network costs make up 43%
environmental costs make up 6%.


Another estimate, pretty similar:
...
https://www.solarrun.com.au/electricity-cost-comparison/

Note: solar and wind requires a new, extensive set of network of poles and wires. Gas, coal, nuclear do not.

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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #53 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:59pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:12pm:
You seem to think that politicians act without advice.  I wonder why?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


No one questions that politicians act on advice, what is of most concern is what that advice is for, is it to run the grid to its potential and most efficiently. Or is that advice on the best decisions to protect that politicians voting block.
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #54 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 3:49pm
 
Leroy wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:59pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:12pm:
You seem to think that politicians act without advice.  I wonder why?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


No one questions that politicians act on advice, what is of most concern is what that advice is for, is it to run the grid to its potential and most efficiently. Or is that advice on the best decisions to protect that politicians voting block.


I note you didn't include the possibility that the advice might be for the best service possible.  I wonder why?  Australia has always been a dog's dinner in the area of electricity generation and distribution.  It's growth has been largely unfetted and has been more about demand from users than industry or more industry rather than users.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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tickleandrose
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #55 - Dec 17th, 2024 at 7:33am
 
Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 15th, 2024 at 9:14pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Dec 15th, 2024 at 2:40pm:
Look, lets just be honest.   In order to have nuclear energy, we need to change the federal law first.  In order for the coalition to do this, it needs to comprehensively win 2 elections in a row, over 8 years, in order to gain a majority in both the upper and the lower house.   

AND

At the same time, ALL the state government need to replicate the same. 

I do not think this had never happened in Australia before.

In addition.

We dont have the talents to run those nulcear power plants.   Running an experimental nuclear plant for medical use is vastly different when running one for power.  We would have to import talents - and thats not even just nuclear scientists, but also architects, engineers, and even specialized brick layers!   You dont really think your plumber neighbour next door can do the plumbing to drain dirty water do you? 

Case study:

The Hinkley C reactor, was projected to be 15 billion pounds in 2015, with expected completion in 2025 (just around 10 years).  And that is in a country already has laws for nulcear reactor,  and talents for building and running a nuclear reactor.  It is now scheduled to complete in 2025 (over 20 years), and expected to cost 47.9 billion pounds - which is around 90 billion Australian dollars.   

SO, in which fantasy / parallel universe, do you believe that Dutton can build 7 nuclear reactors for 300 billion dollars before 2040? 




This is a ridiculous argument. Australia has never operated nuclear submarines, yet we now have sailors and officers operating onboard US nuclear submarines after attending US Navy nuclear submarine schools. By your logic, Australia is incapable of operating such submarines, but I think the officers and sailors from the RAN training onboard US Virginia class submarines would disagree. What we don't know, we can learn from the US and UK. To say that we can't do it because we never have is an absurdly ridiculous argument bordering on the nonsensical.


Well, lets take the subs for example.  First of all, we DONT have to build those subs.  They will be built by the USA, using US technology and talents.   EVEN, then the first sub is not expected until at least the late 2030, and early 2040s.   Plus, we are now, starting to train for those who can man and or train the next generation to man those subs.   And this process it self, will take 1 decade. 

And Dutton, wants to train or buy talents, change the laws, and get those nuclear power plant on line before 2050.   At the cost of less than 300 billion AUD.  All of this, is just a dream, designed to confuse us the public.   This will add at least another 1 trillion dollar debt to our economy.
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« Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2024 at 7:39am by tickleandrose »  
 
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #56 - Dec 17th, 2024 at 7:55am
 
By 2050, nuclear as a power will be surpassed by something better.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #57 - Dec 17th, 2024 at 9:40am
 
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #58 - Dec 17th, 2024 at 7:24pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 3:49pm:
Leroy wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:59pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:12pm:
You seem to think that politicians act without advice.  I wonder why?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


No one questions that politicians act on advice, what is of most concern is what that advice is for, is it to run the grid to its potential and most efficiently. Or is that advice on the best decisions to protect that politicians voting block.


I note you didn't include the possibility that the advice might be for the best service possible.  I wonder why?  Australia has always been a dog's dinner in the area of electricity generation and distribution.  It's growth has been largely unfetted and has been more about demand from users than industry or more industry rather than users.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



So with that history, what makes you think that the advice given now is the best?


Do you even understand the shite you post, from the beginning to the final, inevitable moronic tut tut and eye rolling?

Of course you don't.

You just reveal how unbelieavably stupid you are every time you venture beyond moronic yawning.

You are stupid. Yawn.
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Re: Nuclear power to cost almost half ALP renewables
Reply #59 - Dec 17th, 2024 at 8:22pm
 
You are a Righ-wing Islamophobic/Xenophobic/Misogynist Troll, Soren.  A complete WOFTAM.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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