Australian Politics Forum - Unions deny people the right to work

Dnarever

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #30 - Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 10:49pm

It seems that a Union can cost the company a little in higher wages but offset it with better productivity, It seems that they make little difference economically but produce benefits in safety and such.

There is variability at both ends.

If a union is too strong the benefits disappear and if the company is too strong the same sort of thing happens as productivity safety and such suffer and add to costs.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74862 Gender:	Re: Unions deny people the right to work Reply #31 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 6:10am freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:46pm: Why do you think people get raises? unions
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freediver

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #32 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:15am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:32pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 12:52pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2024 at 9:04pm:

Well they do stop people from earning less.

Lower minimum wages put downward pressure on all wages.

No they don't. More idiotic union mantras for the gullible.

If the low wage is $10 an employee after a time is assessed to be doing well and increased to say $14

The Low wage gets pushed down to $8 and an employee is assessed to be doing well gets increased to $12

It will operate like that right through the pay scale.

No it won't. Employees are not paid more because they are "assessed to be doing well". They are paid more so they don't leave for a better paying job.

It is a national minimum wage, it doesn't apply to one company, the other company is likely paying the same rate - that is the point in forcing down wages it isn't just one company they are all on board for lower wages.

You brought up the topic of why people get paid more than the minimum wage. It is nothing to do with what you claimed. Everyone who is not on minimum wage gets their salary dictated by market forces. That is why the unions cannot wave a magic wand and get everyone double the salary. The cost of minimum wages is higher unemployment. That is, it denies people the right to work and the right to decide for themselves.

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

So why do you think companies pay so many people above the minimum wage? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

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Dnarever

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #33 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:19am

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:15am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:32pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 12:52pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2024 at 9:04pm:

Well they do stop people from earning less.

Lower minimum wages put downward pressure on all wages.

No they don't. More idiotic union mantras for the gullible.

If the low wage is $10 an employee after a time is assessed to be doing well and increased to say $14

The Low wage gets pushed down to $8 and an employee is assessed to be doing well gets increased to $12

It will operate like that right through the pay scale.

No it won't. Employees are not paid more because they are "assessed to be doing well". They are paid more so they don't leave for a better paying job.

It is a national minimum wage, it doesn't apply to one company, the other company is likely paying the same rate - that is the point in forcing down wages it isn't just one company they are all on board for lower wages.

You brought up the topic of why people get paid more than the minimum wage. It is nothing to do with what you claimed. Everyone who is not on minimum wage gets their salary dictated by market forces. That is why the unions cannot wave a magic wand and get everyone double the salary. The cost of minimum wages is higher unemployment. That is, it denies people the right to work and the right to decide for themselves.

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

So why do you think companies pay so many people above the minimum wage? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

There is no real connection to people having value or being perceived to have value and the market. The Market is contrived manipulated and very often corrupted.

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freediver

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #34 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:22am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:19am:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:15am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:32pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 4:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 12:52pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30^th, 2024 at 9:04pm:

Well they do stop people from earning less.

Lower minimum wages put downward pressure on all wages.

No they don't. More idiotic union mantras for the gullible.

If the low wage is $10 an employee after a time is assessed to be doing well and increased to say $14

The Low wage gets pushed down to $8 and an employee is assessed to be doing well gets increased to $12

It will operate like that right through the pay scale.

No it won't. Employees are not paid more because they are "assessed to be doing well". They are paid more so they don't leave for a better paying job.

It is a national minimum wage, it doesn't apply to one company, the other company is likely paying the same rate - that is the point in forcing down wages it isn't just one company they are all on board for lower wages.

You brought up the topic of why people get paid more than the minimum wage. It is nothing to do with what you claimed. Everyone who is not on minimum wage gets their salary dictated by market forces. That is why the unions cannot wave a magic wand and get everyone double the salary. The cost of minimum wages is higher unemployment. That is, it denies people the right to work and the right to decide for themselves.

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

So why do you think companies pay so many people above the minimum wage? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

There is no real connection to people having value or being perceived to have value and the market. The Market is contrived manipulated and very often corrupted.

So why do you think companies pay so many people above the minimum wage? Out of the kindness of their heart?

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Dnarever

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #35 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:55am

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:22am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:19am:

There is no real connection to people having value or being perceived to have value and the market. The Market is contrived manipulated and very often corrupted.

So why do you think companies pay so many people above the minimum wage? Out of the kindness of their heart?

People have skills that a business may need. They would still need these people and pay them more if there was no market. You can say CEO's wages are market driven the fact is they are market rorted.

People say market but it is very wibbly wobbly - It mostly doesn't mean much more than a justification for a company to do what they were going to do anyway.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49241 At my desk.	Re: Unions deny people the right to work Reply #36 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:58am Quote: They would still need these people and pay them more if there was no market. Why would they pay them more? Out of the kindness of their heart? Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?
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John Smith

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #37 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:45pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:58am:

Quote:

They would still need these people and pay them more if there was no market.

Why would they pay them more? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

because they increase productivity or upskill

is drinking coolaid an prerequisite when you study economics?

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freediver

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #38 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:48pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:58am:

Quote:

They would still need these people and pay them more if there was no market.

Why would they pay them more? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

because they increase productivity or upskill

How do you know they wouldn't do this without getting paid more?

Most people would probably work just as hard for half the money if that was all that was available on the job market. Many would probably work harder.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 49065 Gender:	Re: Unions deny people the right to work Reply #39 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 1:03pm I love doing Volunteer work for the Community. If I don't get paid. I get laid.
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John Smith

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #40 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 1:56pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:48pm:

How do you know they wouldn't do this without getting paid more?

You didn't ask why people upskill, You asked why some get paid more. I answered. A teller at woolies who has been there for 5 years, gets the same as a teller who has been there for one year. It only changes if their responsibilities or qualifications change.

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freediver

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #41 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 2:35pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 1:56pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:48pm:

How do you know they wouldn't do this without getting paid more?

You didn't ask why people upskill, You asked why some get paid more. I answered. A teller at woolies who has been there for 5 years, gets the same as a teller who has been there for one year. It only changes if their responsibilities or qualifications change.

I am asking you now. Would they bother upskilling if they did not get paid more?

You appear to think you are contradicting me, but you are not. You are just finding a different sounding way to say the same thing. If someone upskills and gets paid more than minimum wage as a result, they are still getting paid more because of job market forces.

All the unions can do is tweak the market a little bit at the very bottom end. They cannot do much, because they have to pretend they are not causing people unemployment or denying them the right to choose for themselves.

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John Smith

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #42 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 5:20pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 2:35pm:

I am asking you now. Would they bother upskilling if they did not get paid more?

Self improvement. I've done many courses that haven't resulted in higher pay for me. I've done them because I benefit in other ways.

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 2:35pm:

If someone upskills and gets paid more than minimum wage as a result, they are still getting paid more because of job market forces.

At no point have I ever argued that market forces aren't one consideration. I've always said anyone is free to pay more than the minimum wage. What is it you think you're proving?

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 2:35pm:

All the unions can do is tweak the market a little bit at the very bottom end

a.k.a. the MINIMUM wage Cheesy

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freediver

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #43 - Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 5:41pm

Quote:

Self improvement. I've done many courses that haven't resulted in higher pay for me. I've done them because I benefit in other ways.

Were they work related? Would you do say, a medicine or law degree if the pay was no different to that of a painter?

Quote:

At no point have I ever argued that market forces aren't one consideration.

Are you arguing anything at all?

Quote:

What is it you think you're proving?

I am disproving the claim that market forces have no effect on salaries above minimum wage. Also, some of the other bits you left out of your quote, like this one: All the unions can do is tweak the market a little bit at the very bottom end. They cannot do much, because they have to pretend they are not causing people unemployment or denying them the right to choose for themselves. The unions of course would never admit to this reality. They want their mindless hacks to chant idiotic mantras like you see in this thread - that union agreements magically drive all salaries and we would all be on $2 an hour without them.

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Gnads

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Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #44 - Jan 4^th, 2025 at 4:14pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:58am:

Quote:

They would still need these people and pay them more if there was no market.

Why would they pay them more? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

because they increase productivity or upskill

How do you know they wouldn't do this without getting paid more?

Most people would probably work just as hard for half the money if that was all that was available on the job market. Many would probably work harder.

That's probably the stupidest statement you've ever made.

Why would any sane person work harder for less?

Thank phuk you're not a current politician.

With those sorts of notions I could see you becoming Australias 1st political assassination.

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