Australian Politics Forum - Unions deny people the right to work

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 58878
Here
Gender: male

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #45 - Jan 4^th, 2025 at 8:07pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:58am:

Quote:

They would still need these people and pay them more if there was no market.

Why would they pay them more? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

because they increase productivity or upskill

How do you know they wouldn't do this without getting paid more?

Most people would probably work just as hard for half the money if that was all that was available on the job market. Many would probably work harder.

I was in a situation a number of years back where the employer were pushing through wage cuts in a modern award negotiation. In the end they were blocked but the reality it would mean that employees could not remain with the company and cover their expenses had it succeeded. There was about a 30% job turn over and that is even though it didn't work just the threat of it gave people the incentive to leave. Part of their decision making was in the realisation that this was not a good employer / not worth working for.

No many don't work harder in fact the ones who do work hard were the first out the door. All the lazy buggers stayed.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49250
At my desk.

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #46 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 12:48pm

Gnads wrote on Jan 4^th, 2025 at 4:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:58am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:55am:

They would still need these people and pay them more if there was no market.

Why would they pay them more? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

because they increase productivity or upskill

How do you know they wouldn't do this without getting paid more?

Most people would probably work just as hard for half the money if that was all that was available on the job market. Many would probably work harder.

That's probably the stupidest statement you've ever made.

Why would any sane person work harder for less?

You are confused Gnads. Maybe read it again.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4^th, 2025 at 8:07pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 12:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:58am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 11:55am:

They would still need these people and pay them more if there was no market.

Why would they pay them more? Out of the kindness of their heart?

Is rejection of basic economics like a pre-requisite for joining a union?

because they increase productivity or upskill

How do you know they wouldn't do this without getting paid more?

Most people would probably work just as hard for half the money if that was all that was available on the job market. Many would probably work harder.

I was in a situation a number of years back where the employer were pushing through wage cuts in a modern award negotiation. In the end they were blocked but the reality it would mean that employees could not remain with the company and cover their expenses had it succeeded. There was about a 30% job turn over and that is even though it didn't work just the threat of it gave people the incentive to leave. Part of their decision making was in the realisation that this was not a good employer / not worth working for.

No many don't work harder in fact the ones who do work hard were the first out the door. All the lazy buggers stayed.

None of that explains your original highlighted comment. Why would an employer pay someone more money if there was no risk of them leaving for an alternative employer?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

John Smith

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 74862
Gender: male

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #47 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 2:51pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 5:41pm:

Were they work related?

some were

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 5:41pm:

Are you arguing anything at all?

If I'm not, why are you getting your tits all worked up?

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2025 at 5:41pm:

I am disproving the claim that market forces have no effect on salaries above minimum wage.

No need to move the goal posts FD. Can you show me where ANYONE said market forces have no effect? Cheesy

Back to top

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49250 At my desk.	Re: Unions deny people the right to work Reply #48 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 2:54pm Quote: Can you show me where ANYONE said market forces have no effect? Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm: Quote: salary dictated by market forces. Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one. Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

John Smith

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 74862
Gender: male

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #49 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 4:47pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

Can you show me where ANYONE said market forces have no effect?

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

market forces are a factor, they aren't the deciding factor

Back to top

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49250
At my desk.

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #50 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 5:34pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 4:47pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

Can you show me where ANYONE said market forces have no effect?

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

market forces are a factor, they aren't the deciding factor

What is?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 58878
Here
Gender: male

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #51 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:06pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

Can you show me where ANYONE said market forces have no effect?

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

CEO wages are not ten thousand times the average wage because of the market, it is because of market corruption. It is beyond the market the market is not relevant to it. Upper management wages are much the same.

We recently seen inflation and associated market price increases. we fairly quickly learned that it wasn't market it was mostly price gouging driving the increases and inflation.

Many places when you look at market influence you find management corruption instead.

Any time the market puts downward pressure on wages business and government intervene to suppress the impact. Wages have been artificially suppressed beyond the market for many decades. Wage increases for workers are not currently a factor of the market in any real way.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49250
At my desk.

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #52 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:07pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

Can you show me where ANYONE said market forces have no effect?

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

CEO wages are not ten thousand times the average wage because of the market, it is because of market corruption. It is beyond the market the market is not relevant to it. Upper management wages are much the same.

We recently seen inflation and associated market price increases. we fairly quickly learned that it wasn't market it was mostly price gouging driving the increases and inflation.

Many places when you look at market influence you find management corruption instead.

Any time the market puts downward pressure on wages business and government intervene to suppress the impact. Wages have been artificially suppressed beyond the market for many decades. Wage increases are not currently a factor of the market in any real way.

What about all the people between the minimum wage and highly paid CEOs? What, other than market forces, determines their wages? The generosity of those CEOs?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 58878
Here
Gender: male

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #53 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:17pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

Can you show me where ANYONE said market forces have no effect?

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

CEO wages are not ten thousand times the average wage because of the market, it is because of market corruption. It is beyond the market the market is not relevant to it. Upper management wages are much the same.

We recently seen inflation and associated market price increases. we fairly quickly learned that it wasn't market it was mostly price gouging driving the increases and inflation.

Many places when you look at market influence you find management corruption instead.

Any time the market puts downward pressure on wages business and government intervene to suppress the impact. Wages have been artificially suppressed beyond the market for many decades. Wage increases are not currently a factor of the market in any real way.

What about all the people between the minimum wage and highly paid CEOs? What, other than market forces, determines their wages? The generosity of those CEOs?

Quote:

What about all the people between the minimum wage and highly paid CEOs?

The strength of the union, the terms of the award, the company's productivity have an impact.

On the whole people in these wage groups have been falling behind what the market would dictate for many decades. Mid wages have been stagnant for decades, this is a function of increasing management power and government intrusion which has undermined any possible market impact.

Quote:

Why real wages have fallen in Australia but risen in most other OECD countries

12 July 2024

A changing workforce and the shift to enterprise bargaining have held back real wage growth, writes Professor John Buchanan.

Australia is now in the same league as Lithuania, Estonia and Hungary when it comes to cutting real pay, according to a new OECD report.

These are the only countries where cuts in real pay – pay adjusted for inflation – have been more severe for low-paid workers than those on higher salaries.

The OECD’s latest Employment Outlook 2024 reports that, compared with the period immediately before the pandemic, real wages are lower today in 16 of the 35 countries.

Australia’s real wages are 4.8% lower than pre-pandemic levels

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2024/07/12/why-real-wages-in-austral...

Back to top

IP Logged

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106090 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Unions deny people the right to work Reply #54 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:56pm Work for $2 an hour - you slaves.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49250
At my desk.

Re: Unions deny people the right to work
Reply #55 - Jan 6^th, 2025 at 7:33pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:17pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

Can you show me where ANYONE said market forces have no effect?

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2025 at 5:45pm:

Quote:

salary dictated by market forces.

Ho Ho Ho - you fell for that one.

Market forces are the greatest rort of all time. It is just like trickle down and the loch Ness Monster.

CEO wages are not ten thousand times the average wage because of the market, it is because of market corruption. It is beyond the market the market is not relevant to it. Upper management wages are much the same.

We recently seen inflation and associated market price increases. we fairly quickly learned that it wasn't market it was mostly price gouging driving the increases and inflation.

Many places when you look at market influence you find management corruption instead.

Any time the market puts downward pressure on wages business and government intervene to suppress the impact. Wages have been artificially suppressed beyond the market for many decades. Wage increases are not currently a factor of the market in any real way.

What about all the people between the minimum wage and highly paid CEOs? What, other than market forces, determines their wages? The generosity of those CEOs?

Quote:

What about all the people between the minimum wage and highly paid CEOs?

The strength of the union, the terms of the award, the company's productivity have an impact.

On the whole people in these wage groups have been falling behind what the market would dictate for many decades. Mid wages have been stagnant for decades, this is a function of increasing management power and government intrusion which has undermined any possible market impact.

Quote:

Why real wages have fallen in Australia but risen in most other OECD countries

12 July 2024

A changing workforce and the shift to enterprise bargaining have held back real wage growth, writes Professor John Buchanan.

Australia is now in the same league as Lithuania, Estonia and Hungary when it comes to cutting real pay, according to a new OECD report.

These are the only countries where cuts in real pay – pay adjusted for inflation – have been more severe for low-paid workers than those on higher salaries.

The OECD’s latest Employment Outlook 2024 reports that, compared with the period immediately before the pandemic, real wages are lower today in 16 of the 35 countries.

Australia’s real wages are 4.8% lower than pre-pandemic levels

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2024/07/12/why-real-wages-in-austral...

I see you flailing your arms in the air, but I don't see you answering the question.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

whiteknight Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8269 melbourne Gender:	Re: Unions deny people the right to work Reply #56 - Jan 7^th, 2025 at 7:12am Special price today on whips and chains.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49250 At my desk.	Re: Unions deny people the right to work Reply #57 - Jan 7^th, 2025 at 9:06am What about you WK? Do you also think that something other than market forces determines salary for people earning above minimum wage? Or are you just a cheerleader?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 29811 Gender:	Re: Unions deny people the right to work Reply #58 - Jan 7^th, 2025 at 11:28am Bobby. wrote on Jan 6^th, 2025 at 6:56pm: Work for $2 an hour - you slaves. https://probonoaustralia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/ginarinehart.jpg Not $2 an hour .... she said $2 per day.
Back to top	"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais IP Logged