Australian Politics Forum - First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date

freediver

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #30 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:10pm

Gnads wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 10:28am:

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2025 at 1:32pm:

No Lee, the LNP is not promising nuclear because we are running out of coal. Nuclear is far more expensive than coal.

There's your pipe dream right there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

Note that this cost excludes the long term cost of storing radioactive nuclear waste for a million years.

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Dnarever

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #31 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:14pm

KangAnon wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 7:04am:

Nuclear power is safe in much the same way air travel is, the result of layer upon layer of stringent safety measures, redundancies, and regulatory oversight. But that safety comes at a cost: time, expertise, and significant financial investment.

That’s why the prospect of Australia’s corporate cowboys, the LNP, who thrive on slashing regulations and prioritising profits over public interest getting involved in nuclear should give anyone pause. You can’t run a nuclear reactor with the same reckless abandon as a mining venture, one serious failure and you’re not just dealing with an environmental fine, you’re rendering land uninhabitable for millennia.

And let’s not kid ourselves about the Coalition’s sudden enthusiasm for nuclear. This isn’t about clean energy, your power bills, or even technological advancement. It’s a stalling tactic, an excuse to delay meaningful investment in renewables while funnelling billions to foreign-owned gas giants that contribute nothing to the public purse. If they actually wanted energy security, they’d be backing the solutions that can be deployed today, not some hypothetical reactor decades down the line.

Quote:

Nuclear power is safe in much the same way air travel is

It doesn't take 10,000 years and 10 Trillion dollars to clean up the inevitable plane accident site ?

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59478 Here Gender:	Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date Reply #32 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:16pm You cannot post Credlin and think you made a post with any value.
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KangAnon

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #33 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:46pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:14pm:

KangAnon wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 7:04am:

Nuclear power is safe in much the same way air travel is, the result of layer upon layer of stringent safety measures, redundancies, and regulatory oversight. But that safety comes at a cost: time, expertise, and significant financial investment.

That’s why the prospect of Australia’s corporate cowboys, the LNP, who thrive on slashing regulations and prioritising profits over public interest getting involved in nuclear should give anyone pause. You can’t run a nuclear reactor with the same reckless abandon as a mining venture, one serious failure and you’re not just dealing with an environmental fine, you’re rendering land uninhabitable for millennia.

And let’s not kid ourselves about the Coalition’s sudden enthusiasm for nuclear. This isn’t about clean energy, your power bills, or even technological advancement. It’s a stalling tactic, an excuse to delay meaningful investment in renewables while funnelling billions to foreign-owned gas giants that contribute nothing to the public purse. If they actually wanted energy security, they’d be backing the solutions that can be deployed today, not some hypothetical reactor decades down the line.

Quote:

Nuclear power is safe in much the same way air travel is

It doesn't take 10,000 years and 10 Trillion dollars to clean up the inevitable plane accident site ?

It’s not a perfect comparison, but the point stands, there was a time when air travel was far from safe. Only through stringent regulation and a relentless focus on safety did it become the reliable mode of transport we now take for granted.

Even today, failures still happen, whether through human error or unforeseen circumstances that escape the vast web of safety redundancies. And when they do, the consequences are catastrophic.

Now imagine entrusting something of similar scale and risk to the Coalition, a government ideologically wedded to deregulation, whose instinct is to strip away oversight rather than strengthen it.

That’s not just concerning. It’s terrifying.

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lee

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #34 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 3:21pm

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:10pm:

Note that this cost excludes the long term cost of storing radioactive nuclear waste for a million years.

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:10pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

The levelised cost of electricity excludes the levelised cost of storage of renewables.

"Levelized cost of energy (LCOE) is a measure of the average net present cost of electricity generation for a generating plant over its lifetime."

Batteries are not generating plant. Wink

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freediver

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #35 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 3:42pm

lee wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 3:21pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:10pm:

Note that this cost excludes the long term cost of storing radioactive nuclear waste for a million years.

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 1:10pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

The levelised cost of electricity excludes the levelised cost of storage of renewables.

"Levelized cost of energy (LCOE) is a measure of the average net present cost of electricity generation for a generating plant over its lifetime."

Batteries are not generating plant. Wink

Further down the article, even with storage renewables are now cheaper than coal and nuclear, eg 5 to 8c per kWh for solar plus storage. You have been told this before.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18117 Gender:	Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date Reply #36 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 4:01pm *
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lee

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #37 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 4:17pm

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 3:42pm:

Further down the article, even with storage renewables are now cheaper than coal and nuclear, eg 5 to 8c per kWh for solar plus storage.

Hmm. Capital costs are not the only cost for battery storage. But let's look at that.

"

Cost per kW Type US EIA[23] US NREL[24] $/MWh[24] CF[24]
Battery storage $1,316 $988–4,774 8–42%
Biomass $4,524 $4,416 $144 64%
Coal power $4,074 $3,075–5,542
Coal with 90% carbon capture $6,495–6,625
Combined-cycle $1,062–1,201
Combined-cycle with 90% carbon capture $2,736–2,845
Distributed generation (wind) $1,731–2,079 $2,275–5,803 $32–219 11–52%
Fuel cells $6,639–7,224
Geothermal power $3,076 $6,753–46,223 $55–396 80–90%
Hydropower, conventional $3,083 $2,574–16,283 $60–366 31–66%
Internal combustion engine $2,018
Nuclear $6,695–7,547 $7,442–7,989 $81–82 94%
Pumped-storage hydroelectricity $1,999–5,505
simple cycle natural gas $922–2,630
Solar photovoltaic $1,327 $1,333–2,743 $31–146 12–30%
Solar PV with storage $1,748 $2,044 $53–81 20–31%
Solar thermal/concentrated $7,895 $6,505 $76–97 49–63%
Turbine, aeroderivative $1,294
Turbine, industrial $785
Wind power $1,718 $1,462 $27–75 18–48%
Wind, offshore $4,833–6,041 $3,285–5,908 $67–146 29–52%

So the cost of Solar PV with storage is $1748/KW, and the Price /MW is $53-81 and they expect the PV's and batteries to have a Cost Recovery Period (CRP)of 30 years. So the panels and batteries have to last that long, otherwise a new cost period starts. Wink

https://atb.nrel.gov/electricity/2022/index

That is so funny. Grin

In Australia, further down the page, Solar USD47/MW, Solar plus 1 hour storage USD 118 and Solar + 4 hour storage USD156. Then of course they don't mention 8 hour, 16 hour or 24 hour storage. Perhaps just muliply the 4 hour cost out. Wink

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freediver

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #38 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 4:51pm

lee wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 3:42pm:

Further down the article, even with storage renewables are now cheaper than coal and nuclear, eg 5 to 8c per kWh for solar plus storage.

Hmm. Capital costs are not the only cost for battery storage. But let's look at that.

"

Cost per kW Type US EIA[23] US NREL[24] $/MWh[24] CF[24]
Battery storage $1,316 $988–4,774 8–42%
Biomass $4,524 $4,416 $144 64%
Coal power $4,074 $3,075–5,542
Coal with 90% carbon capture $6,495–6,625
Combined-cycle $1,062–1,201
Combined-cycle with 90% carbon capture $2,736–2,845
Distributed generation (wind) $1,731–2,079 $2,275–5,803 $32–219 11–52%
Fuel cells $6,639–7,224
Geothermal power $3,076 $6,753–46,223 $55–396 80–90%
Hydropower, conventional $3,083 $2,574–16,283 $60–366 31–66%
Internal combustion engine $2,018
Nuclear $6,695–7,547 $7,442–7,989 $81–82 94%
Pumped-storage hydroelectricity $1,999–5,505
simple cycle natural gas $922–2,630
Solar photovoltaic $1,327 $1,333–2,743 $31–146 12–30%
Solar PV with storage $1,748 $2,044 $53–81 20–31%
Solar thermal/concentrated $7,895 $6,505 $76–97 49–63%
Turbine, aeroderivative $1,294
Turbine, industrial $785
Wind power $1,718 $1,462 $27–75 18–48%
Wind, offshore $4,833–6,041 $3,285–5,908 $67–146 29–52%

So the cost of Solar PV with storage is $1748/KW, and the Price /MW is $53-81

That's the one. The price is per MWh, not per MW. Divide by 1000 to get 5 to 8c per kWh, so you can compare with the trend data above:

Quote:

and they expect the PV's and batteries to have a Cost Recovery Period (CRP)of 30 years. So the panels and batteries have to last that long, otherwise a new cost period starts. Wink

a) That's not what a cost recovery period means. Not sure if your statement means anything at all. Looks like gibberish to me.

b) There is nothing about that in the wikipedia article.

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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85634 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date Reply #39 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 5:40pm Will it be The Greatest Generation 2.0? Power To the People, Cuz!!
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RussiAnVetEraN

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #40 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 5:47pm

Frank wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 9:19am:

The Chinese, Russians, Iranians and others already make huge trouble in Western societies through their manipulation of social media. Russian intelligence was highly active in propelling early iterations of Black Lives Matter.

I would be interested to see evidence for these claims someday.

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Nevermore!

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lee

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #41 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 6:58pm

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 4:51pm:

a) That's not what a cost recovery period means. Not sure if your statement means anything at all. Looks like gibberish to me.

So you don't know and don't want to admit it.

"The Cost Recovery Period refers to the duration over which an asset's cost is systematically recovered through depreciation or amortization. It represents the time it takes for an investment to generate sufficient revenue to cover its initial cost. Here are some key points to consider:"

https://fastercapital.com/content/Cost-Recovery-Period-Understanding-the-Cost-Re...

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 4:51pm:

b) There is nothing about that in the wikipedia article.

Nope. It is further reading. I provided the link. Go to the graph LCOE ($/MWh), hover the mouse over PV + storage.

But there are many assumptions in your link

1. A cost factor unique to storage are losses that occur due to inherent inefficiencies of storing electricity, as well as increased CO2 emissions if any component of the primary source is less than 100% carbon-free.[11] In the U.S., a comprehensive 2015 study found that net system CO2 emissions resulting from storage operation are nontrivial when compared to the emissions from electricity generation [in real time to meet demand], ranging from 104 to 407 kg/MWh of delivered energy depending on location, storage operation mode, and assumptions regarding carbon intensity.

2. For power generation capacity capital costs are often expressed as overnight cost per kilowatt. (So a 12 hour battery, at least for solar)

3. Solar panels exhibit a certain aging, which limits their useful lifetime, but real world data does not yet exist for the expected lifetime of the latest models.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #42 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 8:19pm

RussiAnVetEraN wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 5:47pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 9:19am:

The Chinese, Russians, Iranians and others already make huge trouble in Western societies through their manipulation of social media. Russian intelligence was highly active in propelling early iterations of Black Lives Matter.

I would be interested to see evidence for these claims someday.

What makes you think such evidence is available outside The Shadow Governments of this world?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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freediver

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Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date
Reply #43 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 9:44pm

lee wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 6:58pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 4:51pm:

a) That's not what a cost recovery period means. Not sure if your statement means anything at all. Looks like gibberish to me.

So you don't know and don't want to admit it.

"The Cost Recovery Period refers to the duration over which an asset's cost is systematically recovered through depreciation or amortization. It represents the time it takes for an investment to generate sufficient revenue to cover its initial cost. Here are some key points to consider:"

https://fastercapital.com/content/Cost-Recovery-Period-Understanding-the-Cost-Re...

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 4:51pm:

b) There is nothing about that in the wikipedia article.

Nope. It is further reading. I provided the link. Go to the graph LCOE ($/MWh), hover the mouse over PV + storage.

But there are many assumptions in your link

1. A cost factor unique to storage are losses that occur due to inherent inefficiencies of storing electricity, as well as increased CO2 emissions if any component of the primary source is less than 100% carbon-free.[11] In the U.S., a comprehensive 2015 study found that net system CO2 emissions resulting from storage operation are nontrivial when compared to the emissions from electricity generation [in real time to meet demand], ranging from 104 to 407 kg/MWh of delivered energy depending on location, storage operation mode, and assumptions regarding carbon intensity.

2. For power generation capacity capital costs are often expressed as overnight cost per kilowatt. (So a 12 hour battery, at least for solar)

3. Solar panels exhibit a certain aging, which limits their useful lifetime, but real world data does not yet exist for the expected lifetime of the latest models.

So now you are worried about CO2 emissions from battery storage facilities associated with renewable energy supplies?

Does your "further reading" contradict anything in the wikipedia article, or does it just confuse you?

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59478 Here Gender:	Re: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date Reply #44 - Feb 3^rd, 2025 at 9:47pm Quote: First Nuclear Power Plant Has Official Start Date OK What date was that again ?
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