Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water (Read 420 times)
whiteknight
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 8387
melbourne
Gender: male
Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Feb 13th, 2025 at 6:54am
 
Nuclear plants could use three times more water than current coal plants


Feb 13 2025
ABC News.


In short:   Sad
Analysis of the Coalition's nuclear modelling suggests the plants could use three times as much water as existing coal sites.

Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek has challenged the Coalition to explain how water would be supplied to the plants.

What's next?
The Coalition's plan to establish a nuclear industry in Australia will be tested at the federal election.


The Coalition’s promised nuclear power plants could consume as much as three times more water than existing coal sites, posing a question of where that water would come from.   Sad

The Coalition has promised to begin work from "day one" to build seven nuclear power plants across regional Australia if they win the coming federal election.

It comes as the Australian National University found nuclear power consumes about 1.4 times more water than coal to produce the same amount of electricity, and that they consume more water than any other power source aside from hydropower.

If the proposed nuclear plants were to produce as much energy as the aging coal plants they are expected to replace, it would require 235,000 megalitres of water annually, about 67,000ML above current consumption at the seven coal sites.   Sad

What can we learn from the Coalition's nuclear modelling?
Photo shows Early morning sun shining through steam clouds billowing from a nuclear power plant and transmissions lines.  Early morning sun shining through steam clouds billowing from a nuclear power plant and transmissions lines.
After months of speculation, the Coalition has released the projected costs for its nuclear policy. We spoke to energy experts about what we can and can't take from the modelling, and what it means for you.

And if those sites were to produce the full 104,000 GWhs by 2050 as modelled by Frontier Economics, which is the foundation of the Coalition's policy, it would require more than 500,000 megalitres of water annually — about three times what is currently used.

"Australia is the driest inhabited continent in the world – and due to climate change it’s only going to get drier. Water is our most precious resource – but Peter Dutton wants to spend $600 billion in taxpayer money on one of the most water intensive energies, nuclear," Climate Change Minister Chris Bowen said.   Sad

"Peter Dutton needs to find a Sydney Harbour-sized reservoir of water every year to keep his nuclear reactors stable and running."

Coalition asserts water allocations wouldn't be exceeded
The Coalition disputes its proposed nuclear plants would consumer more water than has been allocated.

Littleproud sits on the lower house frontbench.
The Coalition has said it would be direct with the public about plans to establish an Australian nuclear industry.

In August last year, Nationals leader David Littleproud assured that the capacity of the Coalition's proposed nuclear plants would be "limited" by current water allocations.

"The capacity of those plants, let me give you confidence, will be limited by the extent of which the existing water licences that those coal fired power stations currently exist," Mr Littleproud told a regional summit last year.

That assurance also raises a challenge for proposed nuclear plants at Collie in Western Australia and Port Augusta in South Australia, where the government says there are no existing licences for the coal plants there.

Researchers at the University of New South Wales Nuclear Innovation Centre have previously told the ABC they believe there is enough water at the proposed seven sites to supply nuclear reactors.


Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek questioned where the opposition intended to draw water from to supply its proposed nuclear power plants.

Environment and Water Minister Tanya Plibersek said the Coalition must explain how the proposed plants would be supplied.

"Where will the water come from and who will pay for it? Will farmers foot the bill? Or are they going to leave communities without a reliable drinking water supply? What happens during drought?" Ms Plibersek said.

"It’s too slow, too expensive, puts up bills – and will put people's access to water at risk."   Sad

The opposition maintains their nuclear plants — the first of which it says would come online from 2035 or 2037 depending on the type built — will ultimately prove cheaper than a renewables transition using mostly wind and solar power.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
whiteknight
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 8387
melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #1 - Feb 13th, 2025 at 7:03am
 
Oh my goodness where's all this water going to come from?.  What will happen if we have bad bush fires?.   Sad
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grappler Deep State Feller
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 85634
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #2 - Feb 13th, 2025 at 8:20am
 
My first thought when considering Liddell in the Hunter Valley was ' they're gonna need a bigger moat' .... Vales Point is on Lake Mac - not a safe position for a nuke...
Back to top
 

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 18117
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #3 - Feb 13th, 2025 at 12:36pm
 
So strange that these academics aren't up-to-date about nuclear cooling methods. Roll Eyes

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/01/17/1086736/how-hot-salt-could-transform...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 107542
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #4 - Feb 13th, 2025 at 12:48pm
 

Water?

It's possible that Dutton hasn't thought this out very well.    Undecided
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
John Smith
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 75406
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #5 - Feb 13th, 2025 at 1:26pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 13th, 2025 at 12:48pm:
It's possible that Dutton hasn't thought this out very well.    Undecided


nah... you think? Cheesy Cheesy
Back to top
 

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
IP Logged
 
Armchair_Politician
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 26526
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #6 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 3:04pm
 
Just another scaremongering lie from Labor trying to get people to oppose nuclear power. The factual truth is that nuclear power plants use no more water than coal.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Leroy
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2196
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #7 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 3:07pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 13th, 2025 at 12:36pm:
So strange that these academics aren't up-to-date about nuclear cooling methods. Roll Eyes

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/01/17/1086736/how-hot-salt-could-transform...


This does create other risks, keeping the salt hot and viscus would introduce another weak spot in the system. If your heating fails on the salt you would have to withdraw your fuel.
Back to top
 

Every day you wake up is a good day, make the most of it.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 18117
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #8 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 4:34pm
 
Leroy wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 3:07pm:
This does create other risks, keeping the salt hot and viscus would introduce another weak spot in the system.


So you think chemists know nothing. Grin Grin Grin Grin
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49574
At my desk.
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #9 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 4:41pm
 
Leroy wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 3:07pm:
lee wrote on Feb 13th, 2025 at 12:36pm:
So strange that these academics aren't up-to-date about nuclear cooling methods. Roll Eyes

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/01/17/1086736/how-hot-salt-could-transform...


This does create other risks, keeping the salt hot and viscus would introduce another weak spot in the system. If your heating fails on the salt you would have to withdraw your fuel.


Do you think the coalition will build an experimental new design, under budget and within their 6 month time frame?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Leroy
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2196
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #10 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 4:46pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 4:34pm:
Leroy wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 3:07pm:
This does create other risks, keeping the salt hot and viscus would introduce another weak spot in the system.


So you think chemists know nothing. Grin Grin Grin Grin


I don't recall saying that Lee, but mechanically and electrically I have had to guide engineers on how to solve problems when their drawings work on paper but not in the field.
Back to top
 

Every day you wake up is a good day, make the most of it.
 
IP Logged
 
Leroy
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2196
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #11 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 4:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 4:41pm:
Leroy wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 3:07pm:
lee wrote on Feb 13th, 2025 at 12:36pm:
So strange that these academics aren't up-to-date about nuclear cooling methods. Roll Eyes

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/01/17/1086736/how-hot-salt-could-transform...


This does create other risks, keeping the salt hot and viscus would introduce another weak spot in the system. If your heating fails on the salt you would have to withdraw your fuel.


Do you think the coalition will build an experimental new design, under budget and within their 6 month time frame?


These things can't be scheduled, well they can but it will follow the breeze. Budget is also unknown commodity, you will never (or very rarely) come in under because you have set the base price and everyone will work to that.
Back to top
 

Every day you wake up is a good day, make the most of it.
 
IP Logged
 
Leroy
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2196
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #12 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 5:03pm
 
Leroy wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 4:46pm:
lee wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 4:34pm:
Leroy wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 3:07pm:
This does create other risks, keeping the salt hot and viscus would introduce another weak spot in the system.


So you think chemists know nothing. Grin Grin Grin Grin


I don't recall saying that Lee, but mechanically and electrically I have had to guide engineers on how to solve problems when their drawings work on paper but not in the field.


I'll expand on that a bit more Lee, chemists are highly skilled workers and come up with brilliant ideas and plans that do work.
But there is also the application of that plan, at those temperatures and pressures it needs pumps that are reliable and able to withstand extremes. The chemist comes up with the idea but its up to many more people and designs for it to work. The chemist is not concerned about the type of seals and maintenance required on the motive of the product, they leave that to others. Taking nothing from the chemist but you also need other skills to actually implement these ideas.

Back to top
 

Every day you wake up is a good day, make the most of it.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 18117
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #13 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 5:31pm
 
And because this is an old idea, recently brought to the front again, makes the engineers that worked on it previously, dumb beyond comparison?

"Molten-salt nuclear reactors were developed in the 1950s but were largely shelved as the industry moved toward water-cooled designs. Now, with a growing need for low-carbon power, “there’s a lot of interest in these technologies again,” says Jessica Lovering, cofounder and executive director of the Good Energy Collective, a policy research organization that advocates for the use of nuclear energy. New reactor technology options could help avoid some of the fears around the safety of water-cooled reactors, and they can also generate electricity more efficiently. "

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/01/17/1086736/how-hot-salt-could-transform...

Nothing there about failures in the subsequent 70 years. Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Leroy
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2196
Gender: male
Re: Nuclear Plants Could Use Three Times More Water
Reply #14 - Feb 15th, 2025 at 5:45pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 15th, 2025 at 5:31pm:
And because this is an old idea, recently brought to the front again, makes the engineers that worked on it previously, dumb beyond comparison?

"Molten-salt nuclear reactors were developed in the 1950s but were largely shelved as the industry moved toward water-cooled designs. Now, with a growing need for low-carbon power, “there’s a lot of interest in these technologies again,” says Jessica Lovering, cofounder and executive director of the Good Energy Collective, a policy research organization that advocates for the use of nuclear energy. New reactor technology options could help avoid some of the fears around the safety of water-cooled reactors, and they can also generate electricity more efficiently. "

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/01/17/1086736/how-hot-salt-could-transform...

Nothing there about failures in the subsequent 70 years. Wink


You misunderstand what I said, I didn't mock the idea or attack the validity of it. It was shelved 70 years ago so there won't be any failures. There is a reason they preferred to have water over salt. Reliability is paramount to power stations and water cooling presents less complexity to your systems. Its a simple pump and water reservoir with coolers, less likely to have complications and is a proven reliable system. Salt mat be cheaper of use less water but it introduces more intricate systems that carry risks not associated with water cooling. Salt requires higher pressures, salt is corrosive so there will need to be another system to counter this. Maintenance will be much higher on the system due to the temperatures and pressures. Something as simple as lubrication will be much more complex on high press and temp systems. You can still use these systems but it will come with more risks. Thats all I wanted to say.
Back to top
 

Every day you wake up is a good day, make the most of it.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print