Australian Politics Forum - Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #90 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:53am

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:49am:

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:15am:

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 9:26am:

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 8:41am:

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 7:22am:

It looks like Zelensky played Trump like a fiddle.

Trump’s shifting stance on Ukraine and Russia marks a profound departure from longstanding US policy, pivoting from support for Ukrainian sovereignty to an increasingly servile accommodation of Moscow’s interests.

He’s parroting Putin’s propaganda, and his supporters, shackled by their self-inflicted TDS, are dutifully following suit. Now, Trump has escalated matters further, regurgitating Kremlin talking points about Ukraine supposedly provoking the war.

But Zelensky baited him into going even further. By simply adhering to the Ukrainian Constitution, something that any informed observer understands, he goaded Trump into predictably lashing out, branding him a “dictator.” The irony is lost only on those too invested in their own delusions.

Setting aside the textbook projection, Trump is now openly hostile to one of the key parties in the so-called peace talks, talks that the US insists it should mediate, despite excluding Ukraine from the process altogether.

And what’s the outcome? A proposal straight out of Russia’s playbook: an immediate ceasefire, wartime elections tailor-made for Kremlin interference, and a final agreement designed to enshrine Moscow’s influence over Ukraine’s future.

This charade needs to end. The US has forfeited any claim to neutrality. Europe must take the reins, because Washington, under Trump, is indistinguishable from an extension of the Kremlin.

Zelensky has played Trump!! Cheesy

And why hasn't Europe sorted it all BEFORE Trump? Please explain.

Whatever the EU did or didn't do, doesn't change that Trump was played, again, and easily.

By Zelensky?? Anyway, you probably meant Trump.

But why havent the European acted before? And how would they be effective now? What did Biden do that was effective? You are talking fantasy, lala BS.

It was stupid of Trump to call Zelensky a dictator although by all account Z would lose an election.
It was stupid of the US and the Europens to reneg on Ukrainian neurality and dangle NATO and EU membership. You don't have to be a Putin to find that intolerable.
It was also very stupid of Ukraine to have nationalistic policies maltreating its large Russian ethnic minorities.

So now the two biggest European countries that are practically indistinguishable from each other are at a bloody war, financed and prolonged by NATO.

It's funny how many pro-Russian people are coming out of the woodwork in their defence of Trump.

What an odd crossover.

Read the book. Its the art of negotiation, no?

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Frank

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #91 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:08am

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:49am:

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:15am:

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 9:26am:

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 8:41am:

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 7:22am:

It looks like Zelensky played Trump like a fiddle.

Trump’s shifting stance on Ukraine and Russia marks a profound departure from longstanding US policy, pivoting from support for Ukrainian sovereignty to an increasingly servile accommodation of Moscow’s interests.

He’s parroting Putin’s propaganda, and his supporters, shackled by their self-inflicted TDS, are dutifully following suit. Now, Trump has escalated matters further, regurgitating Kremlin talking points about Ukraine supposedly provoking the war.

But Zelensky baited him into going even further. By simply adhering to the Ukrainian Constitution, something that any informed observer understands, he goaded Trump into predictably lashing out, branding him a “dictator.” The irony is lost only on those too invested in their own delusions.

Setting aside the textbook projection, Trump is now openly hostile to one of the key parties in the so-called peace talks, talks that the US insists it should mediate, despite excluding Ukraine from the process altogether.

And what’s the outcome? A proposal straight out of Russia’s playbook: an immediate ceasefire, wartime elections tailor-made for Kremlin interference, and a final agreement designed to enshrine Moscow’s influence over Ukraine’s future.

This charade needs to end. The US has forfeited any claim to neutrality. Europe must take the reins, because Washington, under Trump, is indistinguishable from an extension of the Kremlin.

Zelensky has played Trump!! Cheesy

And why hasn't Europe sorted it all BEFORE Trump? Please explain.

Whatever the EU did or didn't do, doesn't change that Trump was played, again, and easily.

By Zelensky?? Anyway, you probably meant Trump.

But why havent the European acted before? And how would they be effective now? What did Biden do that was effective? You are talking fantasy, lala BS.

It was stupid of Trump to call Zelensky a dictator although by all account Z would lose an election.
It was stupid of the US and the Europens to reneg on Ukrainian neurality and dangle NATO and EU membership. You don't have to be a Putin to find that intolerable.
It was also very stupid of Ukraine to have nationalistic policies maltreating its large Russian ethnic minorities.

So now the two biggest European countries that are practically indistinguishable from each other are at a bloody war, financed and prolonged by NATO.

It's funny how many pro-Russian people are coming out of the woodwork in their defence of Trump.

What an odd crossover.

where??

what have you misundersood this time??

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Bobby.

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #92 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:10am

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 7:22am:

It looks like Zelensky played Trump like a fiddle.

Trump’s shifting stance on Ukraine and Russia marks a profound departure from longstanding US policy, pivoting from support for Ukrainian sovereignty to an increasingly servile accommodation of Moscow’s interests.

He’s parroting Putin’s propaganda, and his supporters, shackled by their self-inflicted TDS, are dutifully following suit. Now, Trump has escalated matters further, regurgitating Kremlin talking points about Ukraine supposedly provoking the war.

But Zelensky baited him into going even further. By simply adhering to the Ukrainian Constitution, something that any informed observer understands, he goaded Trump into predictably lashing out, branding him a “dictator.” The irony is lost only on those too invested in their own delusions.

Setting aside the textbook projection, Trump is now openly hostile to one of the key parties in the so-called peace talks, talks that the US insists it should mediate, despite excluding Ukraine from the process altogether.

And what’s the outcome? A proposal straight out of Russia’s playbook: an immediate ceasefire, wartime elections tailor-made for Kremlin interference, and a final agreement designed to enshrine Moscow’s influence over Ukraine’s future.

This charade needs to end. The US has forfeited any claim to neutrality. Europe must take the reins, because Washington, under Trump, is indistinguishable from an extension of the Kremlin.

Biden's refusal 3 years ago to not enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine
was the first sign that the heart of USA was not into helping Ukraine win the war.
Zelensky should have surrendered within one week and
told Europe to go and get stuffed as they would be next on Putin's list
and thanks for nothing.

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chimera

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #93 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:17am

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:15am:

It was stupid of the US and the Europens to reneg on Ukrainian neurality and dangle NATO and EU membership. You don't have to be a Putin to find that intolerable.

An early reason for NATO was to prevent another world war by a European invader. This protects Russia against Germany/ France / UK.

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John Smith

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #94 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:56am

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:15am:

It was stupid of the US and the Europens to reneg on Ukrainian neurality and dangle NATO and EU membership. You don't have to be a Putin to find that intolerable.

What a load of rubbish ...why shouldn't nato get Ukraine to join? Why does russia get to dictate what other countries can and cannot do? Why are you sooooo stupid?

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Leroy

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #95 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 12:24pm

John Smith wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:56am:

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:15am:

It was stupid of the US and the Europens to reneg on Ukrainian neurality and dangle NATO and EU membership. You don't have to be a Putin to find that intolerable.

What a load of rubbish ...why shouldn't nato get Ukraine to join? Why does russia get to dictate what other countries can and cannot do? Why are you sooooo stupid?

Because the US, Germany and Ukraine promised Russia that Ukraine would never join NATO and if they did then Russia would consider that hostile and a security threat.

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Frank

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #96 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 12:34pm

John Smith wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:56am:

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:15am:

It was stupid of the US and the Europens to reneg on Ukrainian neurality and dangle NATO and EU membership. You don't have to be a Putin to find that intolerable.

What a load of rubbish ...why shouldn't nato get Ukraine to join? Why does russia get to dictate what other countries can and cannot do? Why are you sooooo stupid?

It was the price of Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons, among other things, after the Soviet Union disintegrated.

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KangAnon

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #97 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 1:06pm

Bobby. wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:10am:

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 7:22am:

It looks like Zelensky played Trump like a fiddle.

Trump’s shifting stance on Ukraine and Russia marks a profound departure from longstanding US policy, pivoting from support for Ukrainian sovereignty to an increasingly servile accommodation of Moscow’s interests.

He’s parroting Putin’s propaganda, and his supporters, shackled by their self-inflicted TDS, are dutifully following suit. Now, Trump has escalated matters further, regurgitating Kremlin talking points about Ukraine supposedly provoking the war.

But Zelensky baited him into going even further. By simply adhering to the Ukrainian Constitution, something that any informed observer understands, he goaded Trump into predictably lashing out, branding him a “dictator.” The irony is lost only on those too invested in their own delusions.

Setting aside the textbook projection, Trump is now openly hostile to one of the key parties in the so-called peace talks, talks that the US insists it should mediate, despite excluding Ukraine from the process altogether.

And what’s the outcome? A proposal straight out of Russia’s playbook: an immediate ceasefire, wartime elections tailor-made for Kremlin interference, and a final agreement designed to enshrine Moscow’s influence over Ukraine’s future.

This charade needs to end. The US has forfeited any claim to neutrality. Europe must take the reins, because Washington, under Trump, is indistinguishable from an extension of the Kremlin.

Biden's refusal 3 years ago to not enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine
was the first sign that the heart of USA was not into helping Ukraine win the war.
Zelensky should have surrendered within one week and
told Europe to go and get stuffed as they would be next on Putin's list
and thanks for nothing.

So you say Trump will save us from WW3, then you complain that Biden took actions to support Ukraine in a deliberate way to avoid WW3...

You're on fire today Bobbi...

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Bobby.

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #98 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 1:17pm

KangAnon wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 1:06pm:

So you say Trump will save us from WW3, then you complain that Biden took actions to support Ukraine in a deliberate way to avoid WW3...

You're on fire today Bobbi...

No - I'm saying that Zelensky should never have accepted the piss poor help
that led to half a million of his people killed and many cities demolished.

He should have surrendered 3 years ago to save all those lives and the cities.
Why fight a war that destroys your nation?
He had so called guarantees from agreements with Europe and the USA
about protecting Ukraine in case of invasion and they reneged on the deals.

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John Smith

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #99 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 1:26pm

Leroy wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 12:24pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:56am:

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:15am:

It was stupid of the US and the Europens to reneg on Ukrainian neurality and dangle NATO and EU membership. You don't have to be a Putin to find that intolerable.

What a load of rubbish ...why shouldn't nato get Ukraine to join? Why does russia get to dictate what other countries can and cannot do? Why are you sooooo stupid?

Because the US, Germany and Ukraine promised Russia that Ukraine would never join NATO and if they did then Russia would consider that hostile and a security threat.

did spewtin tell you that? Cheesy

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Leroy

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #100 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 1:59pm

John Smith wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 1:26pm:

Leroy wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 12:24pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 11:56am:

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:15am:

It was stupid of the US and the Europens to reneg on Ukrainian neurality and dangle NATO and EU membership. You don't have to be a Putin to find that intolerable.

What a load of rubbish ...why shouldn't nato get Ukraine to join? Why does russia get to dictate what other countries can and cannot do? Why are you sooooo stupid?

Because the US, Germany and Ukraine promised Russia that Ukraine would never join NATO and if they did then Russia would consider that hostile and a security threat.

did spewtin tell you that? Cheesy

Its in the Australian National Archives.

Quote:

Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansio
n-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75198 Gender:	Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war Reply #101 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 2:02pm Leroy wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 1:59pm: Its in the Australian National Archives. that was a deal with the soviet union ... they no longer exist
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Bobby.

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #102 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 2:03pm

Quote:

Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 –
U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion

They also said they would defend Ukraine but the Yanks even
refused to put a no-fly zone over Ukraine since Feb 2022.

They Yanks words and the European words are worth nothing - zero.

It is a worry for us if China ever attacked us.
The Yanks nuclear umbrella is all a hoax too.
We have been conned.

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Leroy

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Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war
Reply #103 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 2:06pm

If Europe can't abide by their assurances that they would not allow NATO to expand eastwards how can Russia trust that they wont stop at Ukraine. The people of Russia are watching as Europe and the US backtrack on their promise only to give another promise. Who is going to trust the new promise. Europe and Ukraine are giving Putin all the evidence he needs to convince his people that Europe and the US can not be trusted and are a threat to security.

you need to look at both sides to make a sound judgement.

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Leroy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1925 Gender:	Re: Trump to Ukraine: you shouldn't have started war Reply #104 - Feb 21^st, 2025 at 2:07pm John Smith wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 2:02pm: Leroy wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 1:59pm: Its in the Australian National Archives. that was a deal with the soviet union ... they no longer exist Thats not going to fly, the people in Russia still exist.
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