Australian Politics Forum - biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy

Leroy

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #45 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 8:59am

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 8:46am:

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The reason you haven't had a blackout because of them is because while you have coal you can cover any shortfall caused by a failure of Renewables (renewables cannot cover for coal or gas.).

Why couldn't coal fired power stations cover the shortfall when a coal fired station went down?

They do, thats why blackouts are rare.

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freediver

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #46 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 9:13am

Leroy wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 8:59am:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 8:46am:

Quote:

The reason you haven't had a blackout because of them is because while you have coal you can cover any shortfall caused by a failure of Renewables (renewables cannot cover for coal or gas.).

Why couldn't coal fired power stations cover the shortfall when a coal fired station went down?

They do, thats why blackouts are rare.

Well, they didn't.

Blackouts are very common. Nothing to do with the electricity source. The grid breaks all over the place, on a regular basis. People don't panic about that, or about blackouts caused by coal fired power stations going down. But coalition voters get nightmares about blackouts caused by renewables, even though we may end up with a more reliable electricity supply. They have nightmares because coalition propaganda tells them to, and they are incapable of rational thought.

For example, we are already seeing the benefits of EVs providing power. Which is why voters like Gnads are so eager to dismiss it as nonsense.

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Leroy

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #47 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 9:47am

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 9:13am:

Leroy wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 8:59am:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 8:46am:

Quote:

The reason you haven't had a blackout because of them is because while you have coal you can cover any shortfall caused by a failure of Renewables (renewables cannot cover for coal or gas.).

Why couldn't coal fired power stations cover the shortfall when a coal fired station went down?

They do, thats why blackouts are rare.

Well, they didn't.

Blackouts are very common. Nothing to do with the electricity source. The grid breaks all over the place, on a regular basis. People don't panic about that, or about blackouts caused by coal fired power stations going down. But coalition voters get nightmares about blackouts caused by renewables, even though we may end up with a more reliable electricity supply. They have nightmares because coalition propaganda tells them to, and they are incapable of rational thought.

For example, we are already seeing the benefits of EVs providing power. Which is why voters like Gnads are so eager to dismiss it as nonsense.

you will find it rare to have blackouts caused by coal fired plants, they are the most reliable part of the system.

They blackouts you will get from renewables won't be the same, they will be caused by new issues like not having enough capacity, too much wind or overcast conditions which will be added to the current causes like fires, transformer failures, cooling water issues and fallen lines.

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freediver

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #48 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:20pm

There will be a lot of battery storage, much closer to where the energy is used, including inside the home. There is a good chance the power supply will be more reliable, not less. It does not matter how reliable a coal fired power station is, if you cannot get the power to people's homes when the wind blows too hard, and you have no backup option whenever one fails.

The bottom line is, there will be as many blackouts as people are comfortable with. No need for the coalition's scaremongering about "different types of blackouts". We have never had a 100% reliable electricity supply. It is a myth created by the coalition to scare the more stupid voters in deciding we suddenly need one.

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Leroy

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #49 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:41pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:20pm:

There will be a lot of battery storage, much closer to where the energy is used, including inside the home. There is a good chance the power supply will be more reliable, not less. It does not matter how reliable a coal fired power station is, if you cannot get the power to people's homes when the wind blows too hard, and you have no backup option whenever one fails.

The bottom line is, there will be as many blackouts as people are comfortable with. No need for the coalition's scaremongering about "different types of blackouts". We have never had a 100% reliable electricity supply. It is a myth created by the coalition to scare the more stupid voters in deciding we suddenly need one.

Homes are the least of problems, industry is where the problems loom. Some manufacturing plants need continuity of supply for various reasons. Hospitals, communications systems, banking these all need security of supply then you have safety systems and the list goes on. Too many people underestimate the critical nature of supply.

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freediver

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #50 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 1:13pm

Leroy wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:41pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:20pm:

There will be a lot of battery storage, much closer to where the energy is used, including inside the home. There is a good chance the power supply will be more reliable, not less. It does not matter how reliable a coal fired power station is, if you cannot get the power to people's homes when the wind blows too hard, and you have no backup option whenever one fails.

The bottom line is, there will be as many blackouts as people are comfortable with. No need for the coalition's scaremongering about "different types of blackouts". We have never had a 100% reliable electricity supply. It is a myth created by the coalition to scare the more stupid voters in deciding we suddenly need one.

Homes are the least of problems, industry is where the problems loom. Some manufacturing plants need continuity of supply for various reasons. Hospitals, communications systems, banking these all need security of supply then you have safety systems and the list goes on. Too many people underestimate the critical nature of supply.

If they actually need it, they have their own backup system, because a 100% reliable grid supply is a fantasy fed to gullible morons by the Liberal party.

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lee

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #51 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 1:25pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:20pm:

There will be a lot of battery storage, much closer to where the energy is used, including inside the home.

At what cost?

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:20pm:

We have never had a 100% reliable electricity supply.

That's right about 90% supply, apparently falling to 60% because there is no lifeline to maintain them, when used intermittently. Transmission failure on top. Roll Eyes

Now we have never had 60% reliable renewables. In fact I can find no figure for them at all. Just "we will". Future prognosticatiuons are not future proofing. Roll Eyes

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Leroy

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #52 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 1:46pm

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 1:25pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:20pm:

There will be a lot of battery storage, much closer to where the energy is used, including inside the home.

At what cost?

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 12:20pm:

We have never had a 100% reliable electricity supply.

That's right about 90% supply, apparently falling to 60% because there is no lifeline to maintain them, when used intermittently. Transmission failure on top. Roll Eyes

Now we have never had 60% reliable renewables. In fact I can find no figure for them at all. Just "we will". Future prognosticatiuons are not future proofing. Roll Eyes

There is a big difference in blackouts, a true blackout only happens extremely rarely. A plant falling off line happens regularly and due to the spinning reserves is covered within minutes.

A true blackout is when the whole grid goes down. Electricity is not like water, you can't just produce it and then dish it out, it has to be used the instant its created. Some industry plants use 10-50mw and that has to be available when they energize that equipment without too much disturbance to the grid.

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freediver

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #53 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 3:30pm

Quote:

At what cost?

Less than the cost of nuclear. Have you forgotten the many discussion we have already had on this?

The cost of running your home from your EV is essentially free. They come with a pack that gives 240V output. If there is enough demand, we will end up with home smart chargers for EVs that work seamlessly both ways.

Quote:

A true blackout is when the whole grid goes down.

I think you will find that people are more interested in whether their own power is connected. Losing power to the whole state 10% of the time, and losing power to a changing 10% of the state 100% of the time, means the same thing to the end user, even though only 1 of them counts as a "true blackout" by your definition.

Did you have some kind of point?

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Leroy

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #54 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 3:56pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

Quote:

At what cost?

Less than the cost of nuclear. Have you forgotten the many discussion we have already had on this?

The cost of running your home from your EV is essentially free. They come with a pack that gives 240V output. If there is enough demand, we will end up with home smart chargers for EVs that work seamlessly both ways.

Quote:

A true blackout is when the whole grid goes down.

I think you will find that people are more interested in whether their own power is connected. Losing power to the whole state 10% of the time, and losing power to a changing 10% of the state 100% of the time, means the same thing to the end user, even though only 1 of them counts as a "true blackout" by your definition.

Did you have some kind of point?

I suppose my point was there is a big difference between a blackout and a system disturbance. blackouts are rare and most grids would be 99%+ availability. The only one I can think of in the last decade is in SA.

System disturbances affect small areas and usually from load shedding and occur more often. The reliance on renewables is going to increase load shedding far more often than you realize. The complexity of keeping your system balanced (50htz) is hard enough with coal/gas which are reliable. Renewables create a whole other list of complex difficulties.

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lee

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #55 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 4:08pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

Less than the cost of nuclear. Have you forgotten the many discussion we have already had on this?

You mean the ones where you wouldn't propose what it would cost? Grin

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

The cost of running your home from your EV is essentially free.

Providing you have a charge in your EV. And is that solely charged from solar? Roll Eyes

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

They come with a pack that gives 240V output.

Yes. Depending on the size of the battery pack. Up to about 100KWh at 340 volt. At 240 volt that's about 140 KWh, disregarding losses. Providing it is fully charged.

Of course they are now talking of using 800volt systems, which increases charging times.

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Daves2017 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1415 Gender:	Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy Reply #56 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 5:03pm Why can’t we have a combination of power sources? Coal, renewable and nuclear?
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Leroy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2187 Gender:	Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy Reply #57 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 5:24pm Daves2017 wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 5:03pm: Why can’t we have a combination of power sources? Coal, renewable and nuclear? We can but the dishonest information being touted by politicians is corrupting the process.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #58 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 5:26pm

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 4:08pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

Less than the cost of nuclear. Have you forgotten the many discussion we have already had on this?

You mean the ones where you wouldn't propose what it would cost? Grin

Poor deluded lee, impervious to learning; everyone needs to understand the private sector will cook the planet.

(The Guardian, on Valerie's attempt to escape Alfred..)

The idea climate change may generate a cyclone that ploughs into south-east Queensland was already a “nightmare scenario” for the country’s insurance industry, the same companies who wanted to charge her $30k a year to insure her home. If they were taking it seriously, why shouldn’t Valerie?

Profit-seeking private-sector insurance companies "taking climate change seriously"...why would that be, I wonder...

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Leroy

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Re: biggest coal powered station, 'driving up energy
Reply #59 - Mar 9^th, 2025 at 5:39pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 5:26pm:

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 4:08pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

Less than the cost of nuclear. Have you forgotten the many discussion we have already had on this?

You mean the ones where you wouldn't propose what it would cost? Grin

Poor deluded lee, impervious to learning; everyone needs to understand the private sector will cook the planet.

(The Guardian, on Valerie's attempt to escape Alfred..)

The idea climate change may generate a cyclone that ploughs into south-east Queensland was already a “nightmare scenario” for the country’s insurance industry, the same companies who wanted to charge her $30k a year to insure her home. If they were taking it seriously, why shouldn’t Valerie?

Profit-seeking private-sector insurance companies "taking climate change seriously"...why would that be, I wonder...

I have noticed that with the ice melting they are finding frozen bodies from 1,000's of years ago, just like there was a global warming back then too.

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