Deception and the Just War Doctrine - Revision history

Freediver: /* When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality */

2018-03-11T06:00:57Z

When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality

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	The context of this verse is not war. It is an "eye for an eye" verse. Just war doctrines specifically exclude retribution as a justification for war.		The context of this verse is not war. It is an "eye for an eye" verse. Just war doctrines specifically exclude retribution as a justification for war.

	== When the ~~Koran~~ does impose self defence and proportionality ==		== When the Quran does impose self defence and proportionality ==

	The Quran does clearly impose a doctrine of both self defence and proportionality, albeit a little simplistically. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/126#126][http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/75#77] Despite the clear and unambiguous statement, this verse of the Quran is not used by Muslims seeking to build a case for Islam's just war doctrine, because it limits the restriction to Islam's holy months.		The Quran does clearly impose a doctrine of both self defence and proportionality, albeit a little simplistically. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/126#126][http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/75#77] Despite the clear and unambiguous statement, this verse of the Quran is not used by Muslims seeking to build a case for Islam's just war doctrine, because it limits the restriction to Islam's holy months.

Freediver: /* Misrepresenting the Quran */

2018-03-11T05:41:24Z

Misrepresenting the Quran

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	= Misrepresenting the Quran =		= Misrepresenting the Quran =

			[[Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Lying_about_the_Quran]]

	The Quran promotes and justifies violence. This is not a few scattered verses, but is a dominant theme in the Quran. Whole chapters are devoted to it. For example, chapter 9 is devoted, from start to finish, to encouraging Muslims to slaughter the infidel. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313]		The Quran promotes and justifies violence. This is not a few scattered verses, but is a dominant theme in the Quran. Whole chapters are devoted to it. For example, chapter 9 is devoted, from start to finish, to encouraging Muslims to slaughter the infidel. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313]

Freediver: /* Quran never mentions self-defence */

2018-03-11T00:55:05Z

Quran never mentions self-defence

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	The Quran commands Muslims to slaughter the infidel repeatedly, only occasionally placing genuine limitations on it – eg where there is a peace treaty, unless there is some kind of trivial violation of the treaty. These verses were always conveniently revealed when Muhammad needed to motivate his followers to mobilise for war yet again, and for the most part Muslims correctly interpret them as motivational rather than as some poorly explained rule or restriction. Where restrictions such as following peace treaties are genuinely intended, the Quran states them clearly and explicitly, not as a riddle or a blank slate for filling in the gaps with whatever new moral imperatives Muslims pick up from non-Muslim legal theorists.		The Quran commands Muslims to slaughter the infidel repeatedly, only occasionally placing genuine limitations on it – eg where there is a peace treaty, unless there is some kind of trivial violation of the treaty. These verses were always conveniently revealed when Muhammad needed to motivate his followers to mobilise for war yet again, and for the most part Muslims correctly interpret them as motivational rather than as some poorly explained rule or restriction. Where restrictions such as following peace treaties are genuinely intended, the Quran states them clearly and explicitly, not as a riddle or a blank slate for filling in the gaps with whatever new moral imperatives Muslims pick up from non-Muslim legal theorists.

	Muslims will also cite Quran 8:61 as a “clear” explanation of what self-defence means:		Muslims will also cite Quran 8:61 as a “clear” explanation of what self-defence means: [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1513048082/185#185]

	''And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah.''		''And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah.''

Freediver: /* A brief History of Muhammad’s Militant Aggression */

2018-03-11T00:21:06Z

A brief History of Muhammad’s Militant Aggression

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	See also: [[Political_History_of_Islam\|Political History of Islam]]		See also: [[Political_History_of_Islam\|Political History of Islam]]

	Muhammad started out preaching in Mecca. The Meccan verses in the Quran tend to be less violent, and Muhammad was largely unsuccessful in recruiting people to his religion. Muhammad’s own tribe managed the Kaaba, a prominent pagan shrine, which was very lucrative for them. Muhammad preached against them. He eventually fled Mecca in fear of his life. He ended up in Medina, where he formed a militia and started robbing Meccan trade caravans and murdering traders. This is often justified by Muslims with the following excuses:		Muhammad started out preaching in Mecca. The Meccan verses in the Quran tend to be less violent, and Muhammad was largely unsuccessful in recruiting people to his religion. Muhammad’s own tribe managed the Kaaba, a prominent pagan shrine, which was very lucrative for them. Muhammad preached against them. He eventually fled Mecca in fear of his life.

			=== Muhammad's career of Murdering Meccan traders and stealing their goods ===

			He ended up in Medina, where he formed a militia and started robbing Meccan trade caravans and murdering traders. This is often justified by Muslims with the following excuses:
	* Only the original Muslims who fled Mecca and were thus wronged by the Meccans took part in murdering Meccan traders and stealing their goods. Muslims will even back this up with a link to a wikipedia article clearly saying the opposite. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519763320/150#150][http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519763320/160#160]		* Only the original Muslims who fled Mecca and were thus wronged by the Meccans took part in murdering Meccan traders and stealing their goods. Muslims will even back this up with a link to a wikipedia article clearly saying the opposite. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519763320/150#150][http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519763320/160#160]
	* Muhammad was merely taking revenge for the Meccan emigrants. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519763320/132#132]		* Muhammad was merely taking revenge for the Meccan emigrants. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519763320/132#132]
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	Muslims will flip back and forth between the two most common excuses: justifying the murders and theft as an act of self defence, and as a just act of war in response to Meccan oppression (rather than criminal theft and murder). However, modern just war doctrines that are based on self-defence specifically exclude revenge or ‘stealing property back’ as a justification for war, as this would make it inevitable that even the smallest feuds escalate to armed conflict.		Muslims will flip back and forth between the two most common excuses: justifying the murders and theft as an act of self defence, and as a just act of war in response to Meccan oppression (rather than criminal theft and murder). However, modern just war doctrines that are based on self-defence specifically exclude revenge or ‘stealing property back’ as a justification for war, as this would make it inevitable that even the smallest feuds escalate to armed conflict.

			=== Muhammad's campaign to get rid of Medina's Jewish tribes ===

	Muhammad became more popular as his militia became more successful and profitable. However, three large tribes of Jews remained in Medina and stood between Muhammad and absolute authority over the city. Muhammad tended to have little success converting Jews, despite initially seeing them as natural allies. In addition, the pagans of Medina were somewhat hostile towards Mecca, born of jealousy over the Kaaba and the central role that Mecca played in Arab paganism, while the Jewish tribes had significant trade links with Mecca. It was at this time that Muhammad instructed Muslims to pray towards Mecca instead of Jerusalem, making pagan Mecca rather than the traditional Abrahamic centres the focal point of his religion.		Muhammad became more popular as his militia became more successful and profitable. However, three large tribes of Jews remained in Medina and stood between Muhammad and absolute authority over the city. Muhammad tended to have little success converting Jews, despite initially seeing them as natural allies. In addition, the pagans of Medina were somewhat hostile towards Mecca, born of jealousy over the Kaaba and the central role that Mecca played in Arab paganism, while the Jewish tribes had significant trade links with Mecca. It was at this time that Muhammad instructed Muslims to pray towards Mecca instead of Jerusalem, making pagan Mecca rather than the traditional Abrahamic centres the focal point of his religion.

Freediver: /* A brief History of Muhammad’s Militant Aggression */

2018-03-11T00:19:02Z

A brief History of Muhammad’s Militant Aggression

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 See also: [[Political_History_of_Islam|Political History of Islam]]
-Muhammad started out preaching in Mecca. The Meccan verses in the Quran tend to be less violent, and Muhammad was largely unsuccessful in recruiting people to his religion. Muhammad’s own tribe managed the Kaaba, a prominent pagan shrine, which was very lucrative for them. Muhammad preached against them. He eventually fled Mecca in fear of his life. He ended up in Medina, where he formed a militia and started robbing Meccan trade caravans and murdering traders. This is often justified by Muslims as an act of war  in response to Meccan oppression (rather than criminal theft and murder). However, modern just war doctrines that are based on self-defence specifically exclude revenge or ‘stealing property back’ as a justification for war, as this would make it inevitable that even the smallest feuds escalate to armed conflict.
+Muhammad started out preaching in Mecca. The Meccan verses in the Quran tend to be less violent, and Muhammad was largely unsuccessful in recruiting people to his religion. Muhammad’s own tribe managed the Kaaba, a prominent pagan shrine, which was very lucrative for them. Muhammad preached against them. He eventually fled Mecca in fear of his life. He ended up in Medina, where he formed a militia and started robbing Meccan trade caravans and murdering traders. This is often justified by Muslims with the following excuses:
 Muhammad became more popular as his militia became more successful and profitable. However, three large tribes of Jews remained in Medina and stood between Muhammad and absolute authority over the city. Muhammad tended to have little success converting Jews, despite initially seeing them as natural allies. In addition, the pagans of Medina were somewhat hostile towards Mecca, born of jealousy over the Kaaba and the central role that Mecca played in Arab paganism, while the Jewish tribes had significant trade links with Mecca. It was at this time that Muhammad instructed Muslims to pray towards Mecca instead of Jerusalem, making pagan Mecca rather than the traditional Abrahamic centres the focal point of his religion.
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 ''"O Jews, beware lest God bring on you the like of the retribution which he brought on Quraysh. Accept Islam, for you know that I am a prophet sent by God. You will find this in your scriptures and in God's covenant with you."''
-The Quraysh were Muhammad’s own tribe from Mecca. Muhammad’s militia had recently had their first large scale victory against them. This address, made by Muhammad in a market place, was one of the earliest expressions of Muhammad’s “convert or die” doctrine. Muhammad proceeded to get rid of the three large tribes, one by one.
+The Quraysh were Muhammad’s own tribe from Mecca. Muhammad’s militia had recently had their first large scale victory against them. This address, made by Muhammad in a market place in 624, was one of the earliest expressions of Muhammad’s “convert or die” doctrine. Muhammad proceeded to get rid of the three large tribes, one by one.
-The first tribe to fall victim to Muhammad were the Banu Qaynuqa. According to Islamic traditions, a Banu Qaynuqa goldsmith assaulted a Muslim woman, causing her to be stripped naked. He was killed by a Muslim, which sparked a series of revenge killings. Muhammad expelled the entire tribe from Medina as punishment – another clear rejection of the concept of proportionality.
+The first tribe to fall victim to Muhammad were the Banu Qaynuqa, shortly after Muhammad's address to them in the marketplace. According to Islamic traditions, a Banu Qaynuqa goldsmith assaulted a Muslim woman, causing her to be stripped naked. He was killed by a Muslim, which sparked a series of revenge killings. Muhammad expelled the entire tribe from Medina as punishment – another clear rejection of the concept of proportionality.
 There were now two large Jewish tribes in Medina. Muhammad assassinated the chief of one of them (the Banu-Nadir), who had written erotic poetry about Muslim women, then expelled them about a year later and seized their property.

Freediver: /* Oppression */

2018-01-22T12:16:17Z

Oppression

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	''2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.''		''2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.''

			Other translations use words like polytheist and disbeliever instead of oppressor and fitnah. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/127#127] These translations come across as far more internally consistent. It is misleading to imply that Muslims in the 7th century had the same concept of oppression that we do today.

	The key misrepresentation here is taking extraordinary liberties with the words “cease”. Although it would logically be a reference to what comes before – paganism and rejecting shariah law, Muslims will attempt to construe this verse as only permitting war against oppression.		The key misrepresentation here is taking extraordinary liberties with the words “cease”. Although it would logically be a reference to what comes before – paganism and rejecting shariah law, Muslims will attempt to construe this verse as only permitting war against oppression.

Freediver: /* When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality */

2018-01-22T11:59:18Z

When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality

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	== When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality ==		== When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality ==

	The Quran does clearly impose a doctrine of both self defence and proportionality, albeit a little simplistically. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/75#77] Despite the clear and unambiguous statement, this verse of the Quran is not used by Muslims seeking to build a case for Islam's just war doctrine, because it limits the restriction to Islam's holy months.		The Quran does clearly impose a doctrine of both self defence and proportionality, albeit a little simplistically. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/126#126][http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/75#77] Despite the clear and unambiguous statement, this verse of the Quran is not used by Muslims seeking to build a case for Islam's just war doctrine, because it limits the restriction to Islam's holy months.

	2:194 ''During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe God and know that God is with the righteous.''		2:194 ''During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe God and know that God is with the righteous.''

Freediver: /* When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality */

2018-01-17T10:23:45Z

When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality

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	2:193 ''Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.''		2:193 ''Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.''

			Consider also this verse calling for the slaughter of non-Muslims outside of the hold months:

			''9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.''

	= Justifying Lies about the Quran =		= Justifying Lies about the Quran =

Freediver: /* Context */

2018-01-17T10:23:02Z

Context

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	This is what verse 4 and 5 actually states:		This is what verse 4 and 5 actually states:

	''9:4. Except those of the Mushrikun [infidel] with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).		''9:4. Except those of the Mushrikun [infidel] with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).''
	9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.''
			''9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.''

	Muslims will also claim that verse 13 of chapter 9 states that Muslims should only slaughter the infidel if the infidel attacks Muslims first. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313/71#71] Again, what the verse actually states is very different. Also, the preceding verse cites criticism of Islam as an example of an attack and a justification for slaughtering the infidel.		Muslims will also claim that verse 13 of chapter 9 states that Muslims should only slaughter the infidel if the infidel attacks Muslims first. [http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313/71#71] Again, what the verse actually states is very different. Also, the preceding verse cites criticism of Islam as an example of an attack and a justification for slaughtering the infidel.

Freediver: /* When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality */

2018-01-17T10:21:44Z

When the Koran does impose self defence and proportionality

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	This is the "exception that proves the rule". That is, the only reason the Quran needs to specify this exception during the holy months is because it explicitly encourages hostile and aggressive warfare at other times. It also demonstrates the absurdity of the elaborate "re-interpretations" that are necessary in order to read a just war doctrine into other verses of the Quran. The examples provided above were not cherry-picked for their hollowness. They were the best examples provided.		This is the "exception that proves the rule". That is, the only reason the Quran needs to specify this exception during the holy months is because it explicitly encourages hostile and aggressive warfare at other times. It also demonstrates the absurdity of the elaborate "re-interpretations" that are necessary in order to read a just war doctrine into other verses of the Quran. The examples provided above were not cherry-picked for their hollowness. They were the best examples provided.

			Muslims will attempt to argue that verse 2:194 is a reference to some kind of domestic fighting rather than warfare,
			[http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1513048082/316#136]
			even after arguing that preceding verse (which calls on Muslims to convert people by the sword) is in fact a reference to a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality.
			[http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1513048082/297#297]

			2:193 ''Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.''

	= Justifying Lies about the Quran =		= Justifying Lies about the Quran =